Overheating, Engine / Cooling Options

[ash00]

Well, I had a chance to head to the shop and check out the engine bay. No rod between the engine, as shown from the pictures from the link. I can only assume that the flaps are removed, but I have to figure out a way to remove the shroud and check.

I think I need to look into an aftermarket oil cooler as well

[SirAndy]

Well, I had a chance to head to the shop and check out the engine bay. No rod between the engine, as shown from the pictures from the link. I can only assume that the flaps are removed, but I have to figure out a way to remove the shroud and check.

The good news is that you probably found your overheating problem.

The bad news is that you'll have to get up close and personal with your car to fix it. You'll have to drop the engine and transmission in order to get to the guts of the engine and check/replace the flaps. It's actually a lot easier than it sounds. With practice, you can drop the combo in under an hour.
http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_engdrop1.php

Also, i don't see why a stock oil cooler wouldn't work for you?
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[era vulgaris]

Well, I had a chance to head to the shop and check out the engine bay. No rod between the engine, as shown from the pictures from the link. I can only assume that the flaps are removed, but I have to figure out a way to remove the shroud and check.

I think I need to look into an aftermarket oil cooler as well

If the rod isn't there behind the oil filler then it's doubtful you have flaps. The stock oil cooler is more than adequate for a 2.0 or smaller engine. The problem you're having, if you don't have flaps, is that air isn't getting pushed through your oil cooler, hence the overheating.
Going with an external oil cooler requires a number of modifications to be made. Not just to mount the cooler, but you'll need to run new lines, and fabricate a blanking plate to cover the "hole" that's left where the stock oil cooler was so that you don't loose air going to the 3 and 4 cylinders.

Here are some images that may help you better understand how the cooling system works and how air gets to the stock oil cooler.

[era vulgaris]

more

[era vulgaris]

And this is the thermostatic bellows that controls the flaps. Likely missing since it sounds like you don't have flaps.

[ash00]

Wow, thanks for the great photos! I'm loving this forum already!

Looks like I have a busy weekend ahead of me, but I guess this is one step closer to solving all of the issues of a half-assed restoration. This is why I never trust anybody but myself!

[ash00]

Well, the news gets better.

I just texted the PO:

"as far as I could see the flaps we permanently closed and thermostat removed. A common warm climate (california) modification to help with cooling"

So...doesn't look like its helping much.

I guess the options are:
1) Source out the necessary hardware to get that thermostat / linkage in place

2) Remove the restriction and open the flaps permanently?

[stugray]

It Might still be that none of your oil is getting to the Oil Cooler regardless of how the flaps are positioned.

Read the post #11 about the oil pressure relief valve getting stuck.

[ash00]

I'm going to check this valve as well.

I guess It's not like a thermostat where I can dunk it in hot water to see if it opens. Anyway of testing this valve?

[r_towle]

If you removed the thermostat, the flaps fall into a default position which provides the best cooling, so I suspect you do not have that condition.

It would help if you took some pictures and posted them here so others could advise you.

Rich

[era vulgaris]

I just texted the PO:

"as far as I could see the flaps we permanently closed and thermostat removed. A common warm climate (california) modification to help with cooling"

You should tell the PO that that is pure misinformation. Removing the thermostat and disabling the flaps will accelerate wear on your engine as it takes longer for the engine to warm up and get to operating temp. There is no benefit to cooling. Once the flaps are open, cooling is the same whether they are fixed in the open position or whether they opened via the thermostat.
It's more likely that he couldn't find a thermostat during the restoration, as it's not a readily available part.

I'm assuming that's a typo about the flaps being closed...or he doesn't know what he's talking about. No one would permanently close the flaps. If he did, that's your problem right there.

[ash00]

First off, thanks you all for all the help. Its all making sense now.

I'm definitely going to take some pictures after work and hopefully get more feedback.

Just in my walk over to the shop at lunch, I took a peek and couldn't find the oil pressure switch, instead there is a EMPI oil breather kit, which is tapped from the center oil reservoir on the middle of the cylinder bank. The output of that is looped back into the breather box.

The PO was a vintage car racer, so I assumed he knew what he was doing. I can only assume the worst, and after texting him- he said the flaps were closed permanently. I can't trust anymore after everything else that has gone wrong. I'm trying to understand if there is anyway of inspecting visually, other than no flap shaft between the banks. No thermostat either based on pictures, and I found one on Ebay I might get. It just doesn't sound right when I heard that comment that the flaps were closed.

First off, let me get some pictures.

[SirAndy]

The PO was a vintage car racer

That explains a lot! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


They usually don't care much about longevity or day to day drive-ability. What is good for a race engine is (most of the time) not so good for a street engine.
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[stugray]

If you had a $13 USB Endoscope you could look in through the vanes in the fan and see if your flaps were even installed in the fan housing.

It's nice having a borescope in my toolbox...

Or you could take the fan off and reach in there.

And:

Just in my walk over to the shop at lunch, I took a peek and couldn't find the oil pressure switch, instead there is a EMPI oil breather kit, which is tapped from the center oil reservoir on the middle of the cylinder bank. The output of that is looped back into the breather box.

The oil pressure switch is down through a hole in the engine tins right next to the distributor.
It has nothing to do with the breather box where you pour the oil in.
That port is where the stock pressure switch should be installed.
If he was a racer, he may have extended that port out of the tin where one woudl install a oil pressure sender.

Does the car have an oil pressure gauge?
It would be good to know what oil pressures you are seeing when it starts and once it gets "too hot".

[ash00]

Here are some quick pics that hopefully will help. I am in the market for a scope, so now I have a reason!

[r_towle]

Well, it looks like you do not have the flappers as you already confirmed.

I would suggest you pull the motor ( couple of hours the first time) and without having to remove the tranny you can pull all the head tin, replace those flappers, and make sure the rest of the tin is in place.

There are (I bet) more key pieces missing that you will find once you remove the head tin.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Not the easiest job, but the upper cylinders tin will come off in the car allowing access to install rod and flaps. Afternoon project if you have everything you need. Besides the rod and flaps, there's a spring on the rod, a linkage inside the passenger side of the fan shroud, two retaining tabs and screws for those two empty screw holes on the shroud next to the hole where the rod enters the flap compartment.

[ash00]

Looks like I need to go into the classifieds and look for those thermostat and flap parts. Are they all the same for engine size (1.7, 2.0)?

[rhodyguy]

1.7 1.8 2.0, the same thermo assem. I've never seen a BB plumbed in that fashion.

[era vulgaris]

I've never seen a BB plumbed in that fashion.

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How is it breathing without some way to vent? I've always seen them either with a vent on the breather, or with a hose run back to the carb air filter.

What's that hose that's going above the center of the engine case? The one zip tied to the throttle cable.

Would also be interested to see a shot of the underside of the engine on the passenger side. Just to verify that the stock oil cooler is still there.


Also, here's a writeup on removing the oil pressure relief valve. It's on the underside of the engine near the oil filter. It looks like a big flat head screw.
http://www.ephotomotion.com/914engine/page08.html
It's something you might want to check.
Tangerine Racing sells an improved version of it in case yours is worn out.
http://www.tangerineracing.com/oilpressurerelief.htm
I have it installed on my car. Works great.