My First Hiccup, finally put this to bed after the 3rd try Options

[76-914]

Kent is that really the best you have?
Obviously im remarking on the Irony that subaru people swap to these motors because its more reliable and so much better yet here we are.
Along with the hard fact that they are problematic motors at the best of times in performance situations.
Best of luck with getting it fixed but after seeing whats inside your timing cover id just get a brand new motor because that thing is dirtier than a alcoholic priest in in a whorehouse.
Though ill never not find the plumbing pipe cooling system funny.

It's all good. I'll take a pic of the inside of one of those copper fittings and let you see for yourself.

Wow! Arnolds tractor oil? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) That thing will run 5 deg. cooler once all the sludge is removed.

Word of caution. My cooling system gauges read safe with the occasional spike in temp when I forgot to switch on my fans in stop and go traffic. Ended up cooking my oil as the oil temps were hotter than my water temps when they spiked. Cooked the viscosity enhancers out of the oil. Caused a drop in oil pressure. Castrol GTX. The bike racers call it Castrol brown. They can cook the oil in half a dozen laps. Turns the inside of your engine brown.

I think Stephen nailed it in his response. I remember the Pennzoil Sludge as well. Oil temps ran a little high because all the fasteners around the oilpump were abnormally tight. You can see the external oil cooler they used to aid with oil temps. It's the piece that the oil filter screws onto. Notice that it is caked in sludge. That can't help. I got it tore down last nite and am cleaning parts and the garage now. I'll post pic's later but the head gaskets "kind of" looked OK to my uninformed ass. And they are the layer steel type. Maybe this is why they usually don't suffer these type failures. Got to get back in the garage but I'll post pic's later and you can see what I'm taliking about Rick.

Wow! Arnolds tractor oil? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) That thing will run 5 deg. cooler once all the sludge is removed.

Word of caution. My cooling system gauges read safe with the occasional spike in temp when I forgot to switch on my fans in stop and go traffic. Ended up cooking my oil as the oil temps were hotter than my water temps when they spiked. Cooked the viscosity enhancers out of the oil. Caused a drop in oil pressure. Castrol GTX. The bike racers call it Castrol brown. They can cook the oil in half a dozen laps. Turns the inside of your engine brown.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Holy crap....I thought you powder coated that black at first Kent.

Yea, just as Stephen alluded to below and remember it pushed the heaviest station wagon Subaru made for ~180K.

Sheesh Kent I better finish mine up if you're gonna move this fast.

All that mess is probably your oil pump leaking a TINY bit at the seal, or an O-Ring, something like that. It's just Subaru RTV (use grey RTV) sealing it to the block. Doesn't last forever. The oil has nowhere to go since the timing chain cover is sealed. Just gets flung around by the chains and then baked, especially since the pump is kinda high up.

Wow the shop manual does a great job of describing break down/build up with color pics and stuff!

You are ahead of me. Mine isn't close to running again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Those Subaru factory manuals are pure pleasure are they not?

Poly mounts to the -4 mounting point are easy. I have a set made up, that I don't need anymore if you want them.

Or you just use these and build your own.

A couple pieces of steel your done, also work for the rear trans mounts.

I didn't know where to but those when I made mine so I just used the stock Suby mounts. My main concern was that I would forget where I bought any non-Oem part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Have you set a 1st run date yet Stephen??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif)

[76-914]

OK, this is what I was referring to when I said the head gaskets "kind of" looked OK.



But is this normal? This small area appears to be "DE-lamenating" compared to the rest of the gasket. And this area is dead straight above the exhaust outlet on the left head.



Carnage







Some's pic showing the condition of 3 copper "plumbing fittings" after almost 2 years 10 mo's in service. As you can see, no apparent damage from electrolysis. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[r_towle]

See, water = corrosion, just sayin

[76-914]

Well, I'm either a lucky SOB or I missed something. I dropped the heads at a new local machinist. He calls me after cleaning the heads & a leak down test and says they really don't need work unless I just wanted to spend some $$$. Two intake valves had 4% leak down and one exhaust valve had 9%. Resurfacing was < .003 and only on the end where there is a longish span.
Then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) is with the leak? I assumed it would have been head warpage so I went back to the head gasket shown above. In this pic as well as the one above you can see the 3 layers.



And this looks like the place it was leaking. Look on inside of the far left piece where my thumb is. You can see the white residue left where it leaked. But why didn't it leak between the adjacent layer?




When I tried pull that layer apart it resisted so ran my knife blade in and separated that layer until I saw this bead of mastic as shown below. And the place it leaked is missing that sealant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)



What would cause the gasket sealant to be missing? This is where my thoughts are leading me. If I'm placing that system under a constant pressure greater than what they were intended to see then this might happen. Remember that engine originally had 2 inlets on the radiator for the 2 lines running off each head. That sounds like a system with excellent flow qualities and very, very low head pressure. I use the OEM (1.1 atm /16.16psi) radiator cap and it used to spit several ounces into a catch can before I moved up to a larger dual core radiator. So what did the pressure spike to in those time it did spit water? Or the times that the discharge line was capped off the first 1000 miles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Who (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) knows? Given this I'm going to run 1.25 or 1.375 lines beneath the floor pans in hopes of reducing head pressure to an acceptable level. Awaiting gasket set now.

[Elliot Cannon]

Nope, nope and NO. I'm NOT going to comment at all. I really want to but I can see you have your hands full and won't have time to tell me to eff off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Sorry about the trouble Kent. I've had carb issues since RT66 but the damn airplane is taking all my time now.

[914_teener]

Subaru Effed up......that's the answer.

[DBCooper]

See, water = corrosion, just sayin

Oh, so that's why you don't get head leaks in aircooled motors, no corrosion? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Subaru Effed up......that's the answer.

Yup, that friggin fuel injection. Why didn't they stick with carbs?

Kent, the delaminated part was the center cylinder? The discolored part on the gasket in the top photo? Any time it overheated? That's the usual cause of failed head gaskets, not pressure, but you usually also get warped heads, so it's a little odd. If so I'd say consider yourself lucky, put it back together with the Cometic gaskets, don't overheat it again and you should be good. If not then maybe there's something specific to that motor, so maybe post the photos in one of the Subaru forums. I don't think many of the folks here have much watercooled experience.

[76-914]

See, water = corrosion, just sayin

Oh, so that's why you don't get head leaks in aircooled motors, no corrosion? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Subaru Effed up......that's the answer.

Yup, that friggin fuel injection. Why didn't they stick with carbs?

Kent, the delaminated part was the center cylinder? The discolored part on the gasket in the top photo? Any time it overheated? That's the usual cause of failed head gaskets, not pressure, but you usually also get warped heads, so it's a little odd. If so I'd say consider yourself lucky, put it back together with the Cometic gaskets, don't overheat it again and you should be good. If not then maybe there's something specific to that motor, so maybe post the photos in one of the Subaru forums. I don't think many of the folks here have much watercooled experience.

Yes, the center cylinder. Yes, it hit "H" once but just barely. Not enough to boil any water out though. Yeah, I'm going to throw it back together and holler Shit. We'll see what happens. May be a little experimenting here on my part but one can afford to do so with these engines as they are so affordable. I made an offer on another low mileage 3.0 to keep as a spare. This one is nearing 200K. The comments from the peanut gallery are cool. I own one with a 40 yo air cooled engine as well and I actually "do know" the difference between it vs. the Suby 6. I'm sure I don't have to tell you the difference though, Paul. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) BTW, I am driving Whitey today when I visit another member. I'm sure that will motivate me to get Kugel on the road again; quickly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Chris H.]

So...we're getting new hoses then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ?

Hey get some of this for the oil pump. It's pretty good sh&t. Very similar to that Honda stuff. RTV with vibration resistance.



You might have it already.

I agree with DB, switch to carbs. Or at least write a poem about it.

The engine has 185k and the last 20k were "spirited" miles. It's 14 years old. This is no big deal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) . Now it'll go another 200k+

Kent you may want to check with Bob on how he did his EZ30 setup. We could not get that car's temp above 175 even when we drove it hard. It was completely warmed up when we left his house. Just the connections to/from the engine and the water inlets is what you want to think about.

[DBCooper]

Huh, now that you mention it I wonder how many T4 motors have gone 200K miles without having the heads off. Anybody know of any?

Yeah, I bought another WRX engine as a spare too. Couldn't pass it up, 49K miles (I saw the odometer) and 230 horsepower for six hundred bucks? How can you go wrong?

Oh, that's right, the corrosion. Crap, I forgot, we're all gonna die! [Hi Rich!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ]

[914forme]

I didn't know where to but those when I made mine so I just used the stock Suby mounts. My main concern was that I would forget where I bought any non-Oem part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Have you set a 1st run date yet Stephen??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif)

I long way off.

Come heel or high water it will be on or before April 12th, 2017. I would love to be driving the car by then, but first fire off might not be a bad goal.

[Gunn1]

Well, I'm either a lucky SOB or I missed something. I dropped the heads at a new local machinist. He calls me after cleaning the heads & a leak down test and says they really don't need work unless I just wanted to spend some $$$. Two intake valves had 4% leak down and one exhaust valve had 9%. Resurfacing was < .003 and only on the end where there is a longish span.
Then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) is with the leak? I assumed it would have been head warpage so I went back to the head gasket shown above. In this pic as well as the one above you can see the 3 layers.

And this looks like the place it was leaking. Look on inside of the far left piece where my thumb is. You can see the white residue left where it leaked. But why didn't it leak between the adjacent layer?

When I tried pull that layer apart it resisted so ran my knife blade in and separated that layer until I saw this bead of mastic as shown below. And the place it leaked is missing that sealant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

What would cause the gasket sealant to be missing? This is where my thoughts are leading me. If I'm placing that system under a constant pressure greater than what they were intended to see then this might happen. Remember that engine originally had 2 inlets on the radiator for the 2 lines running off each head. That sounds like a system with excellent flow qualities and very, very low head pressure. I use the OEM (1.1 atm /16.16psi) radiator cap and it used to spit several ounces into a catch can before I moved up to a larger dual core radiator. So what did the pressure spike to in those time it did spit water? Or the times that the discharge line was capped off the first 1000 miles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) Who (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) knows? Given this I'm going to run 1.25 or 1.375 lines beneath the floor pans in hopes of reducing head pressure to an acceptable level. Awaiting gasket set now.

If both of the decks/ surfaces are dead nuts flat (head to block mating surfaces) you may have had a defective head gasket in there from the get go. If that way from the fact then Subaru did eff up.

[DBCooper]

In the first 100K miles, sure, after 150K miles probably not, but coming up on 200K miles? Hard to see that as a Subaru "eff up," especially for a five hundred dollar (or whatever) used engine when you don't know its history. Again, as a point of reference, are there a lot of untouched 100K mile plus aircooled engines out there? So is that a Volkswagen "eff up"?

[Gunn1]

In the first 100K miles, sure, after 150K miles probably not, but coming up on 200K miles? Hard to see that as a Subaru "eff up," especially for a five hundred dollar (or whatever) used engine when you don't know its history. Again, as a point of reference, are there a lot of untouched 100K mile plus aircooled engines out there? So is that a Volkswagen "eff up"?

No .....I just know that while uncommon, there are defects in these type of gaskets from time to time. Just thought that it may have caused the issue that was being discussed.

[76-914]

So...we're getting new hoses then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ?

Hey get some of this for the oil pump. It's pretty good sh&t. Very similar to that Honda stuff. RTV with vibration resistance.



You might have it already.

I agree with DB, switch to carbs. Or at least write a poem about it.

The engine has 185k and the last 20k were "spirited" miles. It's 14 years old. This is no big deal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) . Now it'll go another 200k+

Kent you may want to check with Bob on how he did his EZ30 setup. We could not get that car's temp above 175 even when we drove it hard. It was completely warmed up when we left his house. Just the connections to/from the engine and the water inlets is what you want to think about.

I just start began searching for SS pipe last night. I was thinking of hard piping it beneath the pan then rubber on the engine & radiator ends. Still playing with the idea. Give me a week to decide, Chris. The manual calls for triple bond! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Is this better stuff? I read a thread that mentioned the water pump on an EZ is good for 400K + (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . Since I installed the new cooling system the fans haven't kicked on and the gage stays dead nuts in the middle. DB knows I'm not going carbs. No (know) need. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[DBCooper]

It's true carbs would be pretty interesting but we don't care about them so much, really just want to hear you rhyme.

[Andyrew]

Wow that sludge issue is Crazy. Those multi layered gaskets just do that, you'll see that with the new ones. The seal is the pressure from being tightened down.

[Chris H.]

I just start began searching for SS pipe last night. I was thinking of hard piping it beneath the pan then rubber on the engine & radiator ends. Still playing with the idea. Give me a week to decide, Chris. The manual calls for triple bond! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Is this better stuff? I read a thread that mentioned the water pump on an EZ is good for 400K + (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . Since I installed the new cooling system the fans haven't kicked on and the gage stays dead nuts in the middle. DB knows I'm not going carbs. No (know) need. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Yeah you can definitely hard pipe it. Check out the phoenixhobbies build:

Phoenixhobbies cooling pipes

Nicest setup I've ever seen under the car like that. I think he is Phoenix-MN on the BBS here.

I'm good either way. Not really in a hurry to re-do mine but will call you this week just to see what's up. I was kinda maybe thinking hard lines too (Why didn't they tell us these are really never done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) ?)

You SHOULD NOT need a new oil pump. Just re-seal it. Permatex Ultra Gray is very similar to the Subaru stuff, but use what you think is right. Yours is a LOT harder to redo if you get a leak so $40 for a tube might be worth it.

Yeah and we're messing with you on the carbs thing. Now a single HUGE carb.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) ...that might be something... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[914forme]

Here you go

[914forme]

But you could also use Loctite 518 which is anaerobic sealer, so it cures with the absence of air. = Between machined surfaces. Case halves, transmission halves, oil pump to engine etc.... have a tube on order as I normally keep yamabond around, It is convent stop for me. Amazon is even more convent. And I am not tempted to by a motorcycle.

Stuff keeps in a tube much longer than Ultra-gray.

Or any of the Jap brand XXXX-bond stuff. So you have Fujibond, Hondabond, yamabond, etc..... Lets rebrand the same stuff 100 times and go from there. BTW, VW has the same stuff also, so I am sure Porsche does as well, more than likely have the four rings logo on it. Same stuff you get for $1000 a tube to seal you Lambo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)