Why EFI?, maybe excellence was expected and they came as close as they could.. Options

[Gunn1]

Hey fellas, what's the best oil for air-cooled motors? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The REAL question is "Why did they design an engine that needed oil?" Did they Eff that up too? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

How about a Ceramic Wankel? smooth, torque, more hp, better fuel economy better burn because of higher operating temps.......not sure about the effin oil though

[Darren C]

Napier is a diesel in the marine application I would guess.

Appears you've had your sea legs for a lifetime.
Been to the Bay of Biscay?(Cockney)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes the Deltic is a Diesel in Marine form. It had two types of starter motor, the first was an air turbine, the second was a holder for shot gun cartridges, that you fired and the explosion cranked it over!

As for sea legs, yep you could say I've had had more than my fair share at sea and sailed the bay far too may times to count.
That rogue wave info is interesting, like the Clooney movie "The Perfect Storm", I've been at sea in these conditions twice. once in 87 and again in 96. In 96 I was Marine Engineer Officer of the watch on a Type 23 frigate (they were brand new back then) and we got into a terrible storm. The ship started to split in two. Cracks developed on 1 Deck abaft the beam forward of the hanger and aft of the superstructure. We had two teams around the clock with tape and marker pens, measuring how wide it opened and how fast it moved across and down through the ship, marking and timing each progression. It went completely across 1 Deck and then started going down through 5 Deck and then below. The Frigate was being tossed like a cork, we didnt sleep for 3 days, being thrown around inside, pumping out water while the crack only needed to go a few more feet before it got to water level and the ship would have flooded, broken in half and been lost.

Never underestimate the power of nature.

Fortunately we limped back to Portsmouth and I help the dockyard shipwrights repair the damage. From then on all Type 23 had an enormous gusset welded in between the hanger and superstructure on 1 deck to strengthen for this calculated 1 in 100 year event.

So back on track....Any news Geoff on your AFR D-jet trace?

[Bleyseng]

Napier is a diesel in the marine application I would guess.

Appears you've had your sea legs for a lifetime.
Been to the Bay of Biscay?(Cockney)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_wave
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes the Deltic is a Diesel in Marine form. It had two types of starter motor, the first was an air turbine, the second was a holder for shot gun cartridges, that you fired and the explosion cranked it over!

As for sea legs, yep you could say I've had had more than my fair share at sea and sailed the bay far too may times to count.
That rogue wave info is interesting, like the Clooney movie "The Perfect Storm", I've been at sea in these conditions twice. once in 87 and again in 96. In 96 I was Marine Engineer Officer of the watch on a Type 23 frigate (they were brand new back then) and we got into a terrible storm. The ship started to split in two. Cracks developed on 1 Deck abaft the beam forward of the hanger and aft of the superstructure. We had two teams around the clock with tape and marker pens, measuring how wide it opened and how fast it moved across and down through the ship, marking and timing each progression. It went completely across 1 Deck and then started going down through 5 Deck and then below. The Frigate was being tossed like a cork, we didnt sleep for 3 days, being thrown around inside, pumping out water while the crack only needed to go a few more feet before it got to water level and the ship would have flooded, broken in half and been lost.

Never underestimate the power of nature.

Fortunately we limped back to Portsmouth and I help the dockyard shipwrights repair the damage. From then on all Type 23 had an enormous gusset welded in between the hanger and superstructure on 1 deck to strengthen for this calculated 1 in 100 year event.

So back on track....Any news Geoff on your AFR D-jet trace?

Look back one page where I posted it.

[Darren C]

Thanks Geoff, that's what happens when there's too much distraction in another direction....didn't see it!

But now. That is impressive, very stable and good burn. I doubt you'd get engine running smooth, driveable and with the same power & torque on Carbs at this AFR level you'd need 115 mains or below on a 2.0L to get anywhere close.

So OP, this is why the factory went D-jet. Right there in Black & White. ;-)


QED

[Brian Mifsud]

Did Porsche eff up?

Been reading on different types of fuel delivery systems and their pro and cons.

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carburation.

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the 914?

WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.

If you really want to know the answers to your questions, you need to do some reading offline. Take it directly from the horse's mouth:

Get a copy of "Excellence Was Expected" by Karl Ludvigsen.

You will not only get an explanation of WHY Manifold Air Pressure Fuel Injection was chosen for the 914, but how Porsche went about making their decisions. You will also get the entire history of the company.


If you don't walk away after reading that book with a great deal of respect for the company, the decisions they made, and their place in history then it staggers the imagination why you'd suffer through the expense and hard work of owning and maintaining an old German car.

Part of owning a Porsche (even a NARP 914) is appreciation of the brand and the engineering. If none of those matter to you, sell the 914 and get a Honda.

[Gunn1]

Did Porsche eff up?

Been reading on different types of fuel delivery systems and their pro and cons.

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carburation.

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the 914?

WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.

If you really want to know the answers to your questions, you need to do some reading offline. Take it directly from the horse's mouth:

Get a copy of "Excellence Was Expected" by Karl Ludvigsen.

You will not only get an explanation of WHY Manifold Air Pressure Fuel Injection was chosen for the 914, but how Porsche went about making their decisions. You will also get the entire history of the company.


If you don't walk away after reading that book with a great deal of respect for the company, the decisions they made, and their place in history then it staggers the imagination why you'd suffer through the expense and hard work of owning and maintaining an old German car.

Part of owning a Porsche (even a NARP 914) is appreciation of the brand and the engineering. If none of those matter to you, sell the 914 and get a Honda.

Thanks for the reading recommendation, I found it and read some of the reviews on line...Looks like a great read.

I actually already have a great deal of respect for the Porsche name and engineering that went into the vehicles. It all started when my Dad started selling the majority of his Vette collection and started buying Porsche's. One of his I remember most was a 1964 356SC. He saw it in 1975 sitting in used car lot in Minneapolis(Westside Volkswagen) the dealer got it on a trade. it needed a ton of work, which was fine due to the fact Dad owned a body shop and Westside was one of his accounts, he also new the used car manager. After a lot of negotiating it was his for 600.00 bucks. this car provided many firsts for me. Learning how to use saddle soap and rubbing until my arms where sore. The heavy thick brown Leather softened up and looked like new.(Never forget that smell either) The interior chrome, it was amazing how much chrome there was in these small Marvels, using chrome polish until the fingers almost bled and going through a box of rags ending up with a pile of used black rags and black stained hands. Working through the rest of the Interior, the carpet and of course the Coco mats. It was a labor of love. At the time he had a Old school body man that removed all of the rust, he could fabricate any shape bend or curve with sheet metal, then I believe he would use "lead" to fill the dents or seams and file the panel until it was perfect. I cannot remember the exact color name, But it looked like Milk Chocolate, Brown chocolate. Bone stock beautiful. I can remember going out in it. Pop would get it singing down the country roads. He would often try to scare me a little be laying on the brakes and taking his hands of the wheel. The car never failed to stop quick and straight. I always liked the Porsche because if you owned one you "Didn't see yourself coming and going" Its unique shape and sound
always got looks. Since I purchased my first 914 this last February, I have yet to see
one on the road. I find myself wishing I could work on them daily. Like many I cannot wait to get them of the road.......

[Gunn1]

"Part of owning a Porsche (even a NARP 914) is appreciation of the brand and the engineering. If none of those matter to you, sell the 914 and get a Honda."

The above statement is true for some of us but not all.

Many have foresaken the type 4 and its factory fuel delivery system.
for a Chevy, Subaru, and yes even Honda engines and their respective
Fuel delivery systems.

So besides being Porsche, I think that is why the 914 appeals to many. It has so many ways to personalize it....

[Gunn1]

Did Porsche eff up?

Been reading on different types of fuel delivery systems and their pro and cons.

Many of the Guru's (about 5 to 1) prefer carburation.

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the 914?

WHY DID THEY DO IT?????

I would like to keep my car stock with the factory EFI, but increasingly getting more difficult to do with so little information backing it up.

If you really want to know the answers to your questions, you need to do some reading offline. Take it directly from the horse's mouth:
Get a copy of "Excellence Was Expected" by Karl Ludvigsen.


You will not only get an explanation of WHY Manifold Air Pressure Fuel Injection was chosen for the 914, but how Porsche went about making their decisions. You will also get the entire history of the company.
If you don't walk away after reading that book with a great deal of respect for the company, the decisions they made, and their place in history then it staggers the imagination why you'd suffer through the expense and hard work of owning and maintaining an old German car.

Part of owning a Porsche (even a NARP 914) is appreciation of the brand and the engineering. If none of those matter to you, sell the 914 and get a Honda.

"Excellence was Expected" wasn't what I expected. While it was a good read it more was slanted toward the racing end of things... Didn't really include much to do with the civilian side (non race) of things. I would have liked to read more with regards to how and why they made their decisions relating to the consumer end user and not so much the Racing enthusiast.

It was Ok.

Is there any other good reads more related to the non race, more consumer side of the developments ?

[barefoot]

With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the
"Excellence was Expected" wasn't what I expected. While it was a good read it more was slanted toward the racing end of things... Didn't really include much to do with the civilian side (non race) of things. I would have liked to read more with regards to how and why they made their decisions relating to the consumer end user and not so much the Racing enthusiast.

It was Ok.

Is there any other good reads more related to the non race, more consumer side of the developments ?
[/quote]
Try Wikepedia for a brief history.
Remember that the D jet system used on early 914's was already in use for 2 years on VW Square & Fastback cars.

[Gunn1]

[quote name='barefoot' date='Jun 24 2016, 12:45 PM' post='2363458']
With this being the case, Did Porsche mess up when they went the EFI route with the
"Excellence was Expected" wasn't what I expected. While it was a good read it more was slanted toward the racing end of things... Didn't really include much to do with the civilian side (non race) of things. I would have liked to read more with regards to how and why they made their decisions relating to the consumer end user and not so much the Racing enthusiast.

It was Ok.

Is there any other good reads more related to the non race, more consumer side of the developments ?
[/quote]
Try Wikepedia for a brief history.
Remember that the D jet system used on early 914's was already in use for 2 years on VW Square & Fastback cars.
[/quote]

Good point on the D jet.

[Rand]

I see what you did there with the subject change. Having second thoughts about the "eff up" question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Now you are asking if they expect excellence. Well, of course they always strive for it. Some things work better than others, but over time it's always about improving over the previous technology.
Are all your questions rhetorical?

[Gunn1]

I see what you did there with the subject change. Having second thoughts about the "eff up" question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Now you are asking if they expect excellence. Well, of course they always strive for it. Some things work better than others, but over time it's always about improving over the previous technology.
Are all your questions rhetorical?

Nope nothing rhetorical at all

Excellence was Excpected is the name of a recommended read.

No second thoughts, More what could have or should have been done by the engineers at Porsche to supply the end user with a "True" Porsche. That's all

[TheCabinetmaker]

I see what you did there with the subject change. Having second thoughts about the "eff up" question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Now you are asking if they expect excellence. Well, of course they always strive for it. Some things work better than others, but over time it's always about improving over the previous technology.
Are all your questions rhetorical?

I think his new thread wasn't drawing any drama, so he resurrected one that should just die. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[KELTY360]

I see what you did there with the subject change. Having second thoughts about the "eff up" question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Now you are asking if they expect excellence. Well, of course they always strive for it. Some things work better than others, but over time it's always about improving over the previous technology.
Are all your questions rhetorical?

Nope nothing rhetorical at all

Excellence was Excpected is the name of a recommended read.

No second thoughts, More what could have or should have been done by the engineers at Porsche to supply the end user with a "True" Porsche. That's all

Now you want to play the "True Porsche" card??? I wish you'd learn to use search features so you wouldn't clutter up the board with 'loaded' comments and questions.

[Mueller]

Couple of Q's for the thread starter:
Still watching black and white TV? If not, why not?
Still using a 386 based processor? Why not?

I doubt it, it is called progress. Of course black and white TV's and 386 based computers "work" so you shouldn't need anything newer.

http://www.cardiagnostics.be/-now/Educatio...on%20Manual.pdf

See above link...They explain why in print, starting with page 3..
"can already comply today with the exhaust gas legislation of tomorrow"

If you read any of the manuals for D-jet or L-jet they specifically call out what the CO2 levels should be for each particular model, that number is there for a reason (emissions) Yes I know not all places care about smog or emission numbers, but they would rather not build a vehicle that is compliant in only certain areas (like the old goofy CA only smog rules, some models not legal for CA yet legal in all other states even those that are direct neighbors)

And if you think Porsche was all alone in the bad decision to go EFI, please feel free to criticize Saab, Volvo, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Jaguar since they too started to use the same exact fuel injection as Porsche did with the 914.

I am glad to know that 914world is blessed with someone like you that is surely smarter than the thousands of engineers from those above companies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)


http://www.lanuv.nrw.de/fileadmin/lanuv/lu...ears_part-1.pdf

It appears Germany started to be more concerned with CO2 and smog in the '60s. Being that Bosch is a German company they had a huge finacial interest in getting these numbers down to an acceptable level.

Even the manufactures of carbs started to do R&D on EFI and had implemented it years ago.

[Gunn1]

I see what you did there with the subject change. Having second thoughts about the "eff up" question? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
Now you are asking if they expect excellence. Well, of course they always strive for it. Some things work better than others, but over time it's always about improving over the previous technology.
Are all your questions rhetorical?

Nope nothing rhetorical at all

Excellence was Excpected is the name of a recommended read.

No second thoughts, More what could have or should have been done by the engineers at Porsche to supply the end user with a "True" Porsche. That's all

Now you want to play the "True Porsche" card??? I wish you'd learn to use search features so you wouldn't clutter up the board with 'loaded' comments and questions.

I could say "now you get to decide what clutter and loaded Questions are?"

There have been numerous threads that have far less important subject matter in them than this one, and I don't find myself telling the OP they should not have started a thread because the subject has already been covered, or its clutter. Search functions don't always provide the info looked for. Finally if all got their answers from the search function and because of it didn't post....this would be a fairly slow and uninteresting site...

[euro911]

... but this one keeps going over the same old ground. D-jet & L-jet FI from the 70's ... it is what it is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Mueller]

... but this one keeps going over the same old ground. D-jet & L-jet FI from the 70's ... it is what it is (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

OP is working on a time machine. He will convince Porsche they should have kept carbs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[0396]

I think the OP simply has too much time and would like to bump his tread up so he will be noticed as a value contributor.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

[Gunn1]

I think the OP simply has too much time and would like to bump his tread up so he will be noticed as a value contributor.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

What do you mean by "bump"