Pricing confusion, what are 914's really worth? Options

[injunmort]

saw one a month ago, nice original 74, 1.8l fi, without getting too intimate looked like a nice solid car, decent paint, 4 lug fuchs, asking $11,000.00. nobody pays asking price, and any realistic seller pads the price for this reason. i don't see decent cars trading for this kind of money on eBay. my feeling is most go unsold at auction because i reserve is set. with a production number well over 100,000 units it is hard to get collector car money for a 914 unless it is a collector car version e.g. 914/6 LE or one owned by someone famous or a race pedigree. i just don't see how a run of mill 914 will command the same type of money as a 911t in comparable condition, of the same era. i know some t owners think they own rsr's and price accordingly, but they don't trade at those valuations. this is not personal, i disagree with your valuation and desirability of our cars, thats all.

[era vulgaris]

saw one a month ago, nice original 74, 1.8l fi, without getting too intimate looked like a nice solid car, decent paint, 4 lug fuchs, asking $11,000.00. nobody pays asking price, and any realistic seller pads the price for this reason. i don't see decent cars trading for this kind of money on eBay. my feeling is most go unsold at auction because i reserve is set. with a production number well over 100,000 units it is hard to get collector car money for a 914 unless it is a collector car version e.g. 914/6 LE or one owned by someone famous or a race pedigree. i just don't see how a run of mill 914 will command the same type of money as a 911t in comparable condition, of the same era. i know some t owners think they own rsr's and price accordingly, but they don't trade at those valuations. this is not personal, i disagree with your valuation and desirability of our cars, thats all.

So even your example is above your $6-10k number. And like you said, you didn't get too intimate. A large part of the value is in the sheet metal. Until you've scoured every inch of a car to really know how bad (or not) the rust is, value is only conjecture. Did it have black painted trunks? Then that's a no-go for me. Did it have any rust holes in the engine bay? That's a no go for me. Any rust in the longs? Are there any bubbles anywhere on the car? No go. Does the engine bay look like it's been around since the stone age? You get the idea.

I realize asking price isn't selling price. But you can usually discount 10-20% from an asking price for a realistic selling price. Most 'nice' and 'semi-nice' cars that I see for sale - like what I consider nice - would need a minimum 30-40% discount or more from asking price to fall into your price category.

Like I said, please point me to a 'nice' $6-10k fuel injected 914 that needs no rust repair, has nice paint and a nice interior, a clean engine bay and trunks, and doesn't need any major mechanical work to be a reliable any-time-you-want-to-hit-the-road driver. Please, I'm asking you.

[injunmort]

i will sell you my 1971 dd for $5000.00. body solid and no rust repair needed. paint is a matter of opinion, 73 1.7l gone thru last winter and day after start up drove to hershey (225 miles each way). no hiccups. drive daily with no further attention. new conti tires, nice refurbished pedrinis.perfect by no means, but nice and i think i am asking too much. because i don't really want to sell it. and if what you say is true. i know the car you bought from scottyboy. it was for sale here on craigslist for a while, it was at my house for a transmission clinic prior to you buying and i know of its issues. if your valuations are accurate, you got a screaming deal from scottyboy, but i know as many on this forum do, you felt quite the opposite. which is it?

[era vulgaris]

Got any pics? And I mean real pics of the areas we all know are issue areas.

[injunmort]

this weekend will do the full panorama

[era vulgaris]

i will sell you my 1971 dd for $5000.00. body solid and no rust repair needed. paint is a matter of opinion, 73 1.7l gone thru last winter and day after start up drove to hershey (225 miles each way). no hiccups. drive daily with no further attention. new conti tires, nice refurbished pedrinis.perfect by no means, but nice and i think i am asking too much. because i don't really want to sell it. and if what you say is true. i know the car you bought from scottyboy. it was for sale here on craigslist for a while, it was at my house for a transmission clinic prior to you buying and i know of its issues. if your valuations are accurate, you got a screaming deal from scottyboy, but i know as many on this forum do, you felt quite the opposite. which is it?

Wait....you think I got a screaming deal from scotty boy?????!!! I paid $9k for a car that was folding in half, and had to put $2k into it just to make it as safe and reliable to drive as a car that's folding in half can be. If that's your idea of a screaming deal, then your valuations are waaaaaaaaaayyy off. That car was worth maybe $3-5k realistically.

Clearly you didn't spend any time whatsoever looking at that car in detail. It was like swiss cheese. I had to rebuild the entire FI system to make it drivable. The brake MC was leaking (had been for years to the point it had eaten a hole in the floor), and he said it was safe to drive anywhere. There was a 6-8" gaping hole in the driver's inner long that was covered by a piece of metal held on with flex seal, or some kind of rubber adhesive. Every piece of metal on that car had holes and rust-through, or was loaded up with bondo and then painted like the exterior. Fuck off with your 'screaming deal' on that car. If you think that was a 'nice' car, then no wonder you think there are 'nice' cars everywhere for under $10k. That car was a piece of shit. Ask John Forbes and the crew at Black Forest Racing. They told me they hadn't seen a car that bad in a long time, and advised I not spend another penny on it. That from a shop that makes it's livelihood restoring Porsches. They didn't want to work on that car. They didn't want to take my money to work on that car. That's how bad it was. Fuck you and your 'screaming deal'. Yeah, I'm still sore about how bad I got ripped off on that car.

Oh I just remembered also the time I was driving that car and the passenger side rear axle snapped in half, because apparently scotty boy though it was ok to weld two halves of an axle together to make one axle. Did you notice that when you looked at the car? Nope, because you didn't look at it closely enough to know anything about it.
You couldn't close the doors with the windows all the way up because the car was folding in half so bad. Both doors were scraping paint off both door jambs because the car was folding in half so bad.
If you drove through a puddle, water would come shooting into the cabin through the holes in the wheel wells.

That's your idea of a nice car????

It's apparent your definition of 'nice' is my definition of 'shitty'.

[injunmort]

i saw the car in detail and don't dispute its condition. the paint was ok and thats about it. but if nice one are $30,000.00 cars, that was a good place to start at $9,000.00. flared, decent paint and running. $15,000.00 buys a lot of welding. as i said, the car was for sale here semi-locally for a while before he bought it. could tell there were issues from the craigslist add. asking $6,000.00. had no inclination even to look at because of the add. it was driven here (about 60 miles each way) looked ok at 10 feet and ran. the rust was apparent. if i thought i could get 30k for this car repaired, i would have jumped on it immediately. i didn't think it was worth it, though running and "driving". my original point is you valuation of our cars and mine differ significantly. they are not nor will they be 911's.

[Mike Fitton]

Taking $6500 in 1974 and adjusting for inflation, that's about $33,000. So, if the car is just as nice as it was when it was on the showroom floor in 1974, plus it becoming more desirable, I see nothing wrong with values in that range.

Of course, there are not many in show room condition.

Inflation? You must be kidding.

Cars like most liabilities depreciate with age.

Few of them appreciate. Cars are not assets, especially not our NARP's.

Next you are going to tell me my stock 930 is worth way more than I paid for it.

John I think you are mixing 'inflation' (the changed buying power of the currency over time) with the changed value of an item as it wears out / becomes more wanted (i.e. Valuable) over time.

If $6000 then is $33000 now, and most have rotted away (a liability for those owners, not an asset as you rightly point out) thus the good uns are more rare and more desirable for those with the urge and the cash, then it is not surprising that those good uns sell for more than purchase price (inflation adjusted).

I think the 914 is the new 356 and the 928 the next one to take off.

My $9.14 worth.

Dave

If it has a positive value ie +.01 cents then it is an asset. All the money you dump into it is an expense. If you owe money on it then it is a liability. If you sell it for less than what you owe on it that is a loss. Pretty simple accounting 101. 18 months ago I sold my '74 2.0 for $20,000 and thought I got all the money well guess what it is close to a $30K car now, here is a picture. Also when I sold my car Hagerty was saying that a #1 car was $14K - $15K.

[era vulgaris]

i saw the car in detail and don't dispute its condition. the paint was ok and thats about it. but if nice one are $30,000.00 cars, that was a good place to start at $9,000.00. flared, decent paint and running. $15,000.00 buys a lot of welding. as i said, the car was for sale here semi-locally for a while before he bought it. could tell there were issues from the craigslist add. asking $6,000.00. had no inclination even to look at because of the add. it was driven here (about 60 miles each way) looked ok at 10 feet and ran. the rust was apparent. if i thought i could get 30k for this car repaired, i would have jumped on it immediately. i didn't think it was worth it, though running and "driving". my original point is you valuation of our cars and mine differ significantly. they are not nor will they be 911's.

You wouldn't have gotten $30k for scotty boy's car because it didn't just need welding...it needed EVERYTHING. Welding and bodywork (every quarter panel, floorpan, both trunk floors, wheel wells, longitudinals, basically every piece of metal needed replacing), all electrical gone through, new complete interior, suspension, brakes, engine rebuild, FI rebuild, suspension linkage, axles, CV joints, bumpers, paint, etc. Basically you'd have to make a new car from scratch. That - and along with the fact that Scott lied through his teeth to me about it's condition - is why I was pissed and felt like I got ripped off. You'd be into that car for $40-50k by the time you were done.

Now, if you have a nice car like Mike Fitton's above. That's what I consider a 'nice' car. Yeah, that's a $20-30k car. Sorry man, but the nice condition cars are hitting that price range whether you like it or not. You won't find a nice car like Mike's under $10k. Hell, you probably won't find a nice original car like Mike's for under $20k.

[wndsnd]

Taking $6500 in 1974 and adjusting for inflation, that's about $33,000. So, if the car is just as nice as it was when it was on the showroom floor in 1974, plus it becoming more desirable, I see nothing wrong with values in that range.

Of course, there are not many in show room condition.

Inflation? You must be kidding.

Cars like most liabilities depreciate with age.

Few of them appreciate. Cars are not assets, especially not our NARP's.

Next you are going to tell me my stock 930 is worth way more than I paid for it.

John I think you are mixing 'inflation' (the changed buying power of the currency over time) with the changed value of an item as it wears out / becomes more wanted (i.e. Valuable) over time.

If $6000 then is $33000 now, and most have rotted away (a liability for those owners, not an asset as you rightly point out) thus the good uns are more rare and more desirable for those with the urge and the cash, then it is not surprising that those good uns sell for more than purchase price (inflation adjusted).

I think the 914 is the new 356 and the 928 the next one to take off.

My $9.14 worth.

Dave

If it has a positive value ie +.01 cents then it is an asset. All the money you dump into it is an expense. If you owe money on it then it is a liability. If you sell it for less than what you owe on it that is a loss. Pretty simple accounting 101. 18 months ago I sold my '74 2.0 for $20,000 and thought I got all the money well guess what it is close to a $30K car now, here is a picture. Also when I sold my car Hagerty was saying that a #1 car was $14K - $15K.

Shame you sold that car Mike. Someone got a real nice car.

[injunmort]

i have been collecting/horse trading motorcycles for 40 years. triumph bonnevilles are very sought after, especially 1959's. first year and a lot of one year only fitments, also low production numbers. a tool room bonneville (first 150 bikes produced) is a $25,000.00 motorcycle at best. 1959 bonneville in the same condition is a $20,000.00 motorcycle. 1963 -1970 the most refined of the line and the most produced especially 1968-1970. for a very original very clean time capsule, $12-15k. anything restored no matter how correct 6-9k. sure there are people claiming they sold a perfect 1970 bonneville with upgraded electronic ignition, hagon shocks and don hutchinson paint job for 18,000.00. i know it cost that much to restore it to that condition, but only an idiot and charlatan would pay it. they made way too many to have that kind of value. kinda like the 914.

[injunmort]

i would not call that a nice car, i would call that an exceptional car, time capsule. i don't doubt that big money's paid for an example like that and still commands even bigger money. there is a huge gap between that car and your everyday nice 914. that car looks as though it came out of a time machine. you see many of those at any price?

[era vulgaris]

i would not call that a nice car, i would call that an exceptional car, time capsule. i don't doubt that big money's paid for an example like that and still commands even bigger money. there is a huge gap between that car and your everyday nice 914. that car looks as though it came out of a time machine. you see many of those at any price?

#1 condition cars are rare, but they do pop up from time to time. But that doesn't mean that #2 condition cars aren't worth anything. A nice #2 should be in the mid to high teens, maybe peeking into the 20's if it's really nice. Not sub-$10k.
I think your valuations are low.

[mepstein]

I haven't driven my 914, 1.7 all summer (it's been really hot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ) So since it's just been sitting in the garage, my wife asked me the other day if if would sell it and she would use the money to buy a new car for herself. (I do have other cars and other 914's, I see her point) I said honey, I'm ok with that plan but the car needs some rust repair, maybe $5k, then I can probably sell it for $15k. She said, is that all, I though they where worth more. I laughed and said, no, not really. She said, never mind.

Little red is still in my garage. I was never worried (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[injunmort]

maybe splitting hairs, but a car like that, to me is not a #1, that is a unicorn. to me, #1 is a very clean, no rust original car pretty much used over 40-45 years but meticulously cared for, or a very nicely refreshed good original car. same motor and trans, proper respray period correct and nice, but not technically original. slide the scale down from there. a 3 to me, good paper all there, running, driving, restorable but needs cosmetic and mechanical. mucho dollars to bring to even #2. 4, it has a paper, ssi exchangers and some good parts to cover the effort to part it. 5 ,you don't even want to cut it up, too much work.

[JoeDees]

Yeah, I don't think you're going to find a #1 quality for under $10k. I think a #2 hits that on the low end of the pricing scale, but to me #2 quality cars are harder to price because they typically involve modifications. For example I think my 1973 build will be an oddball #2; rust free, rotisserie repaired with a full non-original respray, rebuilt engine and brakes, all new rubber, but will lack some in the originality since I'm going to go carbs on the 1.7 and a few other mods. I'm guessing it's value will sit in the $10-12k range, maybe $15k depending on the economy and demand in Cincinnati when it's done.

[Big Len]

#1 condition cars are rare, but they do pop up from time to time. But that doesn't mean that #2 condition cars aren't worth anything. A nice #2 should be in the mid to high teens, maybe peeking into the 20's if it's really nice. Not sub-$10k.
I think your valuations are low.
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