Is a 914 a good car for weekend / track car fun?, A bird says otherwise... Options

[2mAn]

Ok I'm all registered, I actually spoke to the main guys behind POC and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse so I am now a POC member! I will be in the Time Attack 2 group with a handful of other cars. I'm very excited to be there. I'll be out there by myself so I hope I can meet you guys. My friend said he will drive up for the enduro but we'll see.

-Simon

[campbellcj]

Ok I'm all registered, I actually spoke to the main guys behind POC and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse so I am now a POC member! I will be in the Time Attack 2 group with a handful of other cars. I'm very excited to be there. I'll be out there by myself so I hope I can meet you guys. My friend said he will drive up for the enduro but we'll see.

-Simon

Unfortunately I'm not going to make it tomorrow due to schedule conflicts I didn't know about earlier. Aren't teenagers great? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[914_teener]

Ok I'm all registered, I actually spoke to the main guys behind POC and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse so I am now a POC member! I will be in the Time Attack 2 group with a handful of other cars. I'm very excited to be there. I'll be out there by myself so I hope I can meet you guys. My friend said he will drive up for the enduro but we'll see.

-Simon

Unfortunately I'm not going to make it tomorrow due to schedule conflicts I didn't know about earlier. Aren't teenagers great? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

They become normal again at about 25. Hang in there Chris.

[Justinp71]

Andrew I think your comments further validate that modern tech such as aerodynamic aids, suspension geometry, ABS brakes and maybe most significantly the lightening-quick transmissions have made it much harder for 914s or early 911s to compete in fun or in actual winning ability. Hence the comments that old cars belong with other old cars.

In my car which is extensively modified (but not as much pure balls-out race car as some others here) it's always a give-and-take with the newer cars on track. Most of the GT3/4/5 cars won't run away from me on straights or in tight technical turns where it's mainly mechanical grip at work. Of course I'm rowing the gears manually and losing time every shift where some of them have PDK or whatnot. Under braking and in fast sweepers though, it can be "game over" as aero+abs+wider contact patch trumps my old school tech.

My last observation of VARA was probably a bit seasonal too. I have certainly seen greater Porsche presence at other VARA events. The overall attendance seemed poor at this last one, not only the p-car presence.

I think if I had ABS on my car I would have been able to have been much more confident in my braking zones and stayed on the gas a bit more and held more speed going into corners as well. Im sure balance has a lot to do with that, but when I drove my Fiesta I toasted the brakes after about 8 laps chasing 911's, Boxsters, S2k's, and 370z's.

I KNOW I am going to setup my ABS system for the 914. I really, really wish I had ABS in the 914. I bet I would have picked up at least 2 seconds with ABS and probably another 2 seconds if I had a LSD. Every single corner I was fighting with the inside rear wheel breaking loose on just a little bit of throttle.

That's interesting. Andrew where were you racing at?

When I raced PCA with fresh tires in Stockton I got the #2 time. here is a video of it- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B56cF5qwPQ

Last I raced a SCCA ax I seemed competitive, but that was 5-6 years ago. I could see lsd and abs helping a lot though.

How is your suspension tuned? I hear corner balancing and aggressive camber helps a lot. (I could use some of that myself)

As for the topic of the thread I think the 914 is a good track / weekend car. But not super cheap as these cars are getting old and have to be restored/stiffened before putting all the goodies on. Car technology is really taking off so it will be hard to compete with modern cars. I've been driving an A4 (with sport pack) lately and ironically I think it might handle better (or atleast close), but my 914 is actually pretty soft. I just like how the 914 is super raw, the road is in your hands no electronics or safeties in your way, great steering feel. Also over time the value goes up so its also an investment (well kind of) if you keep it still street legal. They are also very unique which is cool. I'm just really liking cruising the mountain roads with it.

[2mAn]

so here we are a year later and Im back with a similar dilemma, but let me bring you guys up to speed what has happened since the last update. It all starts with that POC event I was at with the E30.

I chose the #318, as the car is actually a 318 model, though it has a 2.8L 24v aluminum I6 in it. This was a bit of a troll because the car is quite fast and left most of the POS guys scratching their heads

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm5.staticflickr.com-16644-1539360731.1.jpg)

However, this was my last race with the car. I realized that what I had built was a lot of fun, but wasnt built to any rules and that meant Id be running with the "deep pockets" groups. This event also exposed certain issues the car has, mostly with a 225 tire, no aero and stock sized brakes... thats a quick $$$$ to drop to try and stay competitive with the 911s, M3s, Vettes, etc that Id be racing against. the decision to sell it happened shortly after and I took advice that was given here and elsewhere.

I read the rule book, specifically VARA since i want to race vintage cars.

I knew which groups I wanted to avoid, and slowly began to narrow down the list. I wanted an Alfa, clearly being influenced by the Alfa Club I was racing with, but I really didnt want to run in B-Sedan with all the maniacs (and budgets) of the 510s, 2002s and GTVs. A friend told me to check the Datsun Roadster with the larger 2000cc motor, and that group looked pretty good. Comparing the car to the competition made it even more appealing and last year, with the help of that same friend, we found the winner. It didnt look like much, and was a bit neglected, but pop the hood and this is what was staring at us..

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm5.staticflickr.com-16644-1539360732.2.jpg)

Its the U20 (2000cc) motor with the optional Mikuni 44 dual side draft carbs that were a factory upgrade. These motors were rated at 150bhp with the carbs and "stage 2' B-cam. Granted mine likely has quite a bit less than 150bhp, but it still has the right parts. Spent a lot of time and money getting it mechanically sound, and though it wasnt ready for track time, I still took it to Willow Springs to see if I could get a few laps in. Unfortunately, the alternator died right when I got to the gate. She didnt want to be driven on the track... I pushed her into place to get this pic haha

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm5.staticflickr.com-16644-1539360732.3.jpg)

Im at a bit of a crossroads with this car though because situations like what happened when I went to Willow Springs seemed to become more frequent, where she would happily cruise for hours and miles, but when I had a canyon run, or a trip to the race track planned she would die...

and here we are again. Im at the point where everything I do from here is all of the safety equipment (new roll bar, kill switch, fuel cell, fire suppression, etc) but Im a bit torn because do I keep chugging along and building it up, or do I sell it and buy something thats already done?

914world member 'jacquot' has a wonderful 914-4 thats ready to go, just needs new belts, but its a 2165 so its technically not going to fall into the D-Production group that a 914-4 2L would fall into, should I play dumb and run with them anyways?

I guess what Im asking is, am I reading too much into these events where I feel like the car is telling me "I dont want to be a racecar" or is it just odd, 50 year old car behavior?

a couple bonus pics of the Roadster for you guys that are more current

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm2.staticflickr.com-16644-1539360733.4.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm1.staticflickr.com-16644-1539360733.5.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/farm1.staticflickr.com-16644-1539360734.6.jpg)

[twin356]

so here we are a year later and Im back with a similar dilemma, but let me bring you guys up to speed what has happened since the last update. It all starts with that POC event I was at with the E30.

I chose the #318, as the car is actually a 318 model, though it has a 2.8L 24v aluminum I6 in it. This was a bit of a troll because the car is quite fast and left most of the POS guys scratching their heads

However, this was my last race with the car. I realized that what I had built was a lot of fun, but wasnt built to any rules and that meant Id be running with the "deep pockets" groups. This event also exposed certain issues the car has, mostly with a 225 tire, no aero and stock sized brakes... thats a quick $$$$ to drop to try and stay competitive with the 911s, M3s, Vettes, etc that Id be racing against. the decision to sell it happened shortly after and I took advice that was given here and elsewhere.

I read the rule book, specifically VARA since i want to race vintage cars.

I knew which groups I wanted to avoid, and slowly began to narrow down the list. I wanted an Alfa, clearly being influenced by the Alfa Club I was racing with, but I really didnt want to run in B-Sedan with all the maniacs (and budgets) of the 510s, 2002s and GTVs. A friend told me to check the Datsun Roadster with the larger 2000cc motor, and that group looked pretty good. Comparing the car to the competition made it even more appealing and last year, with the help of that same friend, we found the winner. It didnt look like much, and was a bit neglected, but pop the hood and this is what was staring at us..

Its the U20 (2000cc) motor with the optional Mikuni 44 dual side draft carbs that were a factory upgrade. These motors were rated at 150bhp with the carbs and "stage 2' B-cam. Granted mine likely has quite a bit less than 150bhp, but it still has the right parts. Spent a lot of time and money getting it mechanically sound, and though it wasnt ready for track time, I still took it to Willow Springs to see if I could get a few laps in. Unfortunately, the alternator died right when I got to the gate. She didnt want to be driven on the track... I pushed her into place to get this pic haha

Im at a bit of a crossroads with this car though because situations like what happened when I went to Willow Springs seemed to become more frequent, where she would happily cruise for hours and miles, but when I had a canyon run, or a trip to the race track planned she would die...

and here we are again. Im at the point where everything I do from here is all of the safety equipment (new roll bar, kill switch, fuel cell, fire suppression, etc) but Im a bit torn because do I keep chugging along and building it up, or do I sell it and buy something thats already done?

914world member 'jacquot' has a wonderful 914-4 thats ready to go, just needs new belts, but its a 2165 so its technically not going to fall into the D-Production group that a 914-4 2L would fall into, should I play dumb and run with them anyways?

I guess what Im asking is, am I reading too much into these events where I feel like the car is telling me "I dont want to be a racecar" or is it just odd, 50 year old car behavior?

a couple bonus pics of the Roadster for you guys that are more current

[twin356]

I happen to think a 914-6 is a Great Vintage Platform. Obviously, technology has advanced with time. Comparing a 45+ year car to things from other decades is not realistic. However, a properly built 6 can be a serious pain in the ass at the front of any grid.
PCA race at Summit Point hosted Vintage group, with 23 cars and 9 of them 914's.
Vintage seems to be coming back to PCA.

I am in the process of finishing a 5 year project, ground up build of 914-6, 2.0. . Yes, pretty much every part is gone through or new. You can buy just about ANY race car already built for pennies on the dollar Vs a build. Engine cost is likely the same for just about any size.

That said, the satisfaction of the build (with my father) is priceless.

[2mAn]

I happen to think a 914-6 is a Great Vintage Platform. Obviously, technology has advanced with time. Comparing a 45+ year car to things from other decades is not realistic. However, a properly built 6 can be a serious pain in the ass at the front of any grid.
PCA race at Summit Point hosted Vintage group, with 23 cars and 9 of them 914's.
Vintage seems to be coming back to PCA.

I am in the process of finishing a 5 year project, ground up build of 914-6, 2.0. . Yes, pretty much every part is gone through or new. You can buy just about ANY race car already built for pennies on the dollar Vs a build. Engine cost is likely the same for just about any size.

That said, the satisfaction of the build (with my father) is priceless.

I highlighted the two areas where I agree wholeheartedly with you...

I LOVE the build, and having found the Roadster it was exactly what I wanted to do. Bring a car back to life and an amazing return too...

BUT

I still have ~$3-5K to spend getting the safety equipment up to snuff, then theres the motor rebuild still yet to do too...

tough to decide what to do...

[campbellcj]

Deciding what to buy, build or mod is a tough call and very personal/subjective, but also can be tons of fun.

Whatever you do, definitely don't underestimate the significance of maintenance, breakage/spares and consumables. These days I usually haul 4 bins of spares and tools to the track.

Also if/when you get 'serious' with wheel-to-wheel or time-attack/time-trial, you have to deal with replacement of helmets and harnesses every few years for instance. Also fuel cell bladders and even seats. Most 'all-in' track folks have at least 2 sets of wheels/tires; many have spare engines and transmissions. Body panels/spoilers. It gets crazy...

[Mayne]

I’ve followed this thread off and on for a while now. I don’t chime in too often on this forum since my 914 is not getting much attention these days but I check in often. I’m a fan of BMWs, especially E30s, so I like yours. I also really like your Datsun Roadster, having owned a nicely modified one myself for years. Selling it was what allowed me to get into P-car ownership, with a 968 coupe. That lead to an early Boxster, a 944 Turbo, and finally a 914. I still own the last three. The turbo is morphing toward being a street-able track car, so I don’t think the 914 will ever be built that way. But even the brief time I’ve spent in it makes me appreciate the sophistication (really!) of the chassis compared to the Datsun. If I was going to build a vintage racer, a 914 would be the choice over a Roadster. And I don’t actually believe the Datsun would be much cheaper, since they don’t really share parts with other Datsun models. The bottom line is, if you want a 914, get one! I’ve loved them for as long as I can remember and having one now makes me smile every time I walk in the garage! Cheers!

[914z]

I need a car that needs me more than I need the car.....

If that makes sense to you, get the 914.

My /6 (2.7, about 2000 pounds) eats some E30's at DE's even with a 71 year old driver. Something very satisfying about doing that with a 40 year old car...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) Abso_friggin_lutly; Being 66 with a 73 2.7 and a fantastic suspension I agree,..."Something very satisfying"...

[wndsrfr]

I need a car that needs me more than I need the car.....

If that makes sense to you, get the 914.

My /6 (2.7, about 2000 pounds) eats some E30's at DE's even with a 71 year old driver. Something very satisfying about doing that with a 40 year old car...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) Abso_friggin_lutly; Being 66 with a 73 2.7 and a fantastic suspension I agree,..."Something very satisfying"...

And, this link shows what I did after another two years ....now I'm 74 & looking forward to "Just one more year, Honey..."
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=335226

[John]

I'm biased. I'd say do a 914 or buy one already converted to a track car. On the other hand, a Boxster track car would probably make more sense.

My dad and I enjoyed building and driving the 914 on-track for 30 years, and I still get to continue driving the car that he bought new. We put this one together over the course of those same 30 years. We knew the car inside and out. I grew up with this one and read all the articles, all the mods (worthwhile and not worthwhile), and we started this track car out as the 2.0 4-cyl that it came with. When it was time for more power, it was converted to an 87' 3.2 (all the way back in 1989). We did this in order to have a car that would start, run, and have no issues as a 2 driver DE car. It will all boil down to what YOU want to do with the car.

I started driving this car on-track when I was 18 and learned how it responds, and we modified the car from there. It had it's flares since 1984, but the real 5-lug suspension didn't come until after we wanted to go stiffer. Today, it is a 930 front end and has 911 Carrera rear calipers and rotors. It sits on 400# rear springs with 23mm front torsion bars. It has a front sway bar and the rear sway bar was removed.

To build a new one today would probably be expensive all at once, but then again, this one was built over many years. It hasn't been a street car for about 25 years. The suspension and seats are not comfortable for casual driving, but are plenty comfortable strapped in and at speed. 914's are not for everyone, but they are very easy to learn, and are much more go-kart like than most other cars you will ever drive.

Like others have commented, I am usually the only 914 at the DE's that I attend, and am one of just a few air cooled Porsches at any event I attend.

a sampling of my toys...




just my $0.02

[Charles Freeborn]

There are track prepped 914 and there are track prepped 914s......it's all about the budget. If you go the 6 route you're into Porsche price territory and it gets very expensive very quickly. If you remain in 4cyl land it can get expensive ( a properly built FAT motor will run you 12k), but that's barely the cost of a good EFI system for a 911 motor..The 4's are very competitive at AX and at some tracks for road race. Higher speed tracks you'll spend a lot of time pointing. Get the weight down to 1800 lbs or less and you'll be in the hunt.
All of that said the 914 is a very different driving experience than your M3 or a 911. More like a big go-kart. Really a blast.

One more thing - if you're going to seriously track drive it you'll want to put in a cage. Some states don't allow a full cage on the street. Personally I wouldn't drive a caged car without a helmet. Lastly, if you have plans to club race, go through the rules carefully before you choose a path. A fun way to race a 914 is vintage. If you go SCCA or ICSCC or similar you'll end up in race groups with Pro3 (3 series BMW) or Spec Miata's. I've worked enough races to say no thanks to both of those groups. Way too much contact for this old fart.

[mlindner]

I love the 914's for track use. 15 years of auto-cross, track (Road America, Black Hawk) almost a trophy every event. Before and after being stored 15 years. Just waiting for 2.2S six to be tuned at Accumoto Motorsport. Best, mark

[partsman912]

Andyrew - Part of what you describe is simply set-up issues; others are components; and lastly, driver skill. Packing a 914 with driver aides defeats the purpose to me. Learn to use powerless brakes; steering, use the damn clutch, etc., etc. I have a couple friends with new Cayman S' with PDK = boring! I guess it depends on what each persons objective is, if you want to develop as a driver - have a car that actually requires that of you. I have a long, long way to go but my car is now capable of running with anything we usually see short of a pro-driver at the wheel. 991 cup cars included...

Either way - its still a boat load of fun - tracking in a non-prepared 914 (to me) - not so much.

Tony

There's always going to be someone there who's faster than we are in our 40 year old Teeners. But, how are you doing against your past personal best? That's one key thing I'm looking at. The other big ego boost is having person after person stop by in the paddock snapping pictures, asking what's in there, shaking their heads and saying "This is the car of the day for me". I don't think that would happen at all if I were in a GT3....just sayin'.

Exactly , I used to AutoX a 356C and always finished middle of the pack. The crowd loved seeing the old girl run and it was satisfying to at least beat some other P cars.

[Shivers]

Yup, pulling the bumpers off is getting serious. Really nice car

I love the 914's for track use. 15 years of auto-cross, track (Road America, Black Hawk) almost a trophy every event. Before and after being stored 15 years. Just waiting for 2.2S six to be tuned at Accumoto Motorsport. Best, mark

[mlindner]

Yup, small accident at Road America...needed repaint.