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> Dads new car
marksteinhilber
post Jun 22 2018, 10:42 AM
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I had a starter switch problem that was caused by the ignition key tumbler and the ignition switch not playing well together. The shape of the tumbler that sticks into the plastic ignition switch varies between some years or generations and was not the right length, shape, combination, or was worn and would not consistently work with three new ignition switches and two known good original switches in a 1974. I had put this together with new ignition key, tumbler, and switches from online vendors since the PO had kept these as this had been a parts car. I eventually got the original key tumbler for this car from the previous owner and it then worked perfectly with any of the original or new switches.

While I was struggling to figure out this puzzling problem, I kept a remote starter switch connected to the starter and zip tied the trigger up inside the engine compartment. If I was out driving and the car wouldn't start using the key, I could simply turn the ignition on and then hit the remote trigger to crank the car. Worked like a charm. Further investigation eventually found the problem with the key tumbler part. I had tried all kinds of other fixes including the ford starter solenoid, and had cleaned all contacts and grounds, and even had multiple ignition switches in and out many times. With all the fixing and trying, everything ended up very well cleaned and put back together tightly to last. All part of learning the 914.

Storytime over I guess.

My problem was ultimately detected by checking for 12V on the yellow wire at the starter coming from the ignition switch. With various parts installed and contacts cleaned and repaired, I kept checking for 12V when the key was turned to the start position. I did this with a simple 12V light bulb plugged in to the yellow wire spade terminal at the starter as it was an easier one person method than using a multimeter. The yellow wire was disconnected from the starter, the other side of the bulb was wired to ground, and the bulb was placed where I could see it using long wires. This allowed me to test by turning the key and watching for the light to go on. If this test doesn't light the bulb reliably, the starter won't work reliably either. Being older, your dad may enjoy old school simplicity. I soldered long wires to an old tail light bulb that still had one good filament. Recycled and repurposed.
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mb911
post Jun 22 2018, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE(marksteinhilber @ Jun 22 2018, 08:42 AM) *

I had a starter switch problem that was caused by the ignition key tumbler and the ignition switch not playing well together. The shape of the tumbler that sticks into the plastic ignition switch varies between some years or generations and was not the right length, shape, combination, or was worn and would not consistently work with three new ignition switches and two known good original switches in a 1974. I had put this together with new ignition key, tumbler, and switches from online vendors since the PO had kept these as this had been a parts car. I eventually got the original key tumbler for this car from the previous owner and it then worked perfectly with any of the original or new switches.

While I was struggling to figure out this puzzling problem, I kept a remote starter switch connected to the starter and zip tied the trigger up inside the engine compartment. If I was out driving and the car wouldn't start using the key, I could simply turn the ignition on and then hit the remote trigger to crank the car. Worked like a charm. Further investigation eventually found the problem with the key tumbler part. I had tried all kinds of other fixes including the ford starter solenoid, and had cleaned all contacts and grounds, and even had multiple ignition switches in and out many times. With all the fixing and trying, everything ended up very well cleaned and put back together tightly to last. All part of learning the 914.

Storytime over I guess.

My problem was ultimately detected by checking for 12V on the yellow wire at the starter coming from the ignition switch. With various parts installed and contacts cleaned and repaired, I kept checking for 12V when the key was turned to the start position. I did this with a simple 12V light bulb plugged in to the yellow wire spade terminal at the starter as it was an easier one person method than using a multimeter. The yellow wire was disconnected from the starter, the other side of the bulb was wired to ground, and the bulb was placed where I could see it using long wires. This allowed me to test by turning the key and watching for the light to go on. If this test doesn't light the bulb reliably, the starter won't work reliably either. Being older, your dad may enjoy old school simplicity. I soldered long wires to an old tail light bulb that still had one good filament. Recycled and repurposed.



Thats a great idea..
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marksteinhilber
post Jun 22 2018, 12:29 PM
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Yeah, simply put, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif) if you're havin a problem and you start testing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) and then the light bulb comes on....
you know sh itz workin! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
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ClayPerrine
post Jun 22 2018, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE(mb911 @ Jun 22 2018, 10:50 AM) *

QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jun 22 2018, 03:59 AM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Jun 21 2018, 04:18 PM) *

Rob Thanks.


So here is where he is at right now

New ignition switch
New starter
New battery
The seat interlock bypassed

Fuel pump kicks on, he hears clicking under the dash, starter doesn't kick over unless solenoid is jumped to the positive terminal.. Any ideas?


Try a remote starter button to engage the starter. Also load test the battery.



That would work as jumping the solenoid will get the starter going and stay engaged.. So corroded wire somewhere?


Probably. Move to the connection under the seat that housed the interlock and test again. If that works, move forward to the ignition switch and send power through the whole starting circuit.

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mb911
post Jun 22 2018, 02:32 PM
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He says he gets a dim light on the test light with the ignition switch is turned back to the yellow solenoid wire..

Doing this 3 ways removed is hard.. The car is about an hour away from me and he is giving me some details over the phone which I am relaying here.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) fun stuff.
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marksteinhilber
post Jun 22 2018, 03:50 PM
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Are any of the key tumbler (pic 1) or the steering wheel lock mechanism (pic 2) new to the car? My problem came from a new lock tumbler that was put into a used and untested steering wheel lock housing. It was apparently slightly different and did not work reliably with my car's steering column. The parts fit a little tight and the wheel lock slide or bolt seemed a little different. Any switch put into these procured parts did not work properly once installed inside the column.
Attached ImageAttached Image

The wiring plug can be pulled off the switch under the dash and steering column and a second good switch can be plugged into the wiring and tested by turning with a flat screwdriver that is inserted into the light green section of the switch in view 2 of this picture.

Attached Image

This helped me prove that the key tumbler and housing did not play well inside my column. So I obtained the original housing, tumbler, and switch from the PO and it fit and worked perfectly in the car. In fact, any replacement switch worked perfectly with the original housing and tumbler. Here's where the switch fits into the housing and you can see the tumbler blade that was the culprit right in the center that turns the center of the switch.

Attached Image

It seemed that the tumbler blade did not extend the same amount or allowed the center of the switch to move off axis. This probably caused the contacts inside the switch (the yellow wire to the starter solenoid) to not make a good circuit. Or they are designed with matching tumblers that depress the parts inside the green area to disengage some contacts or circuits during starting. Mismatched parts can make this a problem depending on what the contacts are being used for in different cars.. Lesson Learned: A Volkswagen tumbler may look the same and be advertised to fit, but....
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Mueller
post Jun 22 2018, 04:19 PM
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Back in the game...trying to keep this one stockish!
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Too cool project. Have fun working with your dad.

Does he get a family discount on your parts ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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mb911
post Jun 22 2018, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 22 2018, 02:19 PM) *

Too cool project. Have fun working with your dad.

Does he get a family discount on your parts ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



He sure seems to get allot of free parts from me that I was saving (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

He dropped off 5 wheels today for me to sand blast and powdercoat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
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jcd914
post Jun 22 2018, 04:45 PM
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You, I mean he can use a Voltage Drop Test to find where he has resistance in the starter circuit or any other circuits on the car.

In a voltage drop test you are testing the circuit under load.
Resistance in a connection or wire forces current through the voltmeter and the higher the voltage the higher the resistance and the more voltage is lost when using the circuit.

Sine the Starter circuit goes from the battery to Fuse panel or a power junction next to the panel to the ignition switch to the seat belt interlock to the engine compartment relay panel to the starter, there is plenty of places to have resistance and voltage drop.

There are plenty of articles on teh net about voltage drop tests.

Here is one Voltage Drop Test

Quite a handy test.

Jim
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ClayPerrine
post Jun 22 2018, 04:58 PM
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I would suggest unplugging the ignition switch. Then put a test wire into the yellow wire on the ignition switch plug. Hook that to the remote starter button, and the other side to the positive battery terminal. See if it cranks.

If it does, then the wire between the ignition switch and the starter is good.

If that works, then remove the remote starter button from the battery and connect it to the heavy red wire on the starter switch plug.


If it cranks, replace the electrical portion of the ignition switch. I have seen lots of them fail, so that is probably the problem.
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mb911
post Jun 23 2018, 05:58 AM
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QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jun 22 2018, 02:58 PM) *

I would suggest unplugging the ignition switch. Then put a test wire into the yellow wire on the ignition switch plug. Hook that to the remote starter button, and the other side to the positive battery terminal. See if it cranks.

If it does, then the wire between the ignition switch and the starter is good.

If that works, then remove the remote starter button from the battery and connect it to the heavy red wire on the starter switch plug.


If it cranks, replace the electrical portion of the ignition switch. I have seen lots of them fail, so that is probably the problem.



So to clarify he has a new switch,battery, starter.. Also I have not gotten to the wiring on my car yet but there is no relay for the starter

I will try the starter button idea though with him.
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mb911
post Jun 26 2018, 04:36 PM
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Blasted dads wheels yesterday now off to powdercoat silver.. He may paint the centers black afterwardsAttached Image
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mepstein
post Jun 26 2018, 05:05 PM
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Tom bought some Mahles from me and had them powdercoated silver. Nicest set I’ve ever seen.
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mb911
post Jun 26 2018, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Jun 26 2018, 03:05 PM) *

Tom bought some Mahles from me and had them powdercoated silver. Nicest set I’ve ever seen.



The silver will be whatever silver they use for their racing wheels.. That's why dad will likely paint the centers black..

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mb911
post Jul 6 2018, 11:54 AM
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Dad working on scrubbing the car down. He has come up with a rash everytime he worka on the car so felt he needed a good scrubbing. Attached Image Attached ImageAttached Image
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porschetub
post Jul 6 2018, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE(ClayPerrine @ Jun 22 2018, 11:59 PM) *

QUOTE(mb911 @ Jun 21 2018, 04:18 PM) *

Rob Thanks.


So here is where he is at right now

New ignition switch
New starter
New battery
The seat interlock bypassed

Fuel pump kicks on, he hears clicking under the dash, starter doesn't kick over unless solenoid is jumped to the positive terminal.. Any ideas?


Try a remote starter button to engage the starter. Also load test the battery.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) remote starter switches are super handy and easy to make,test the battery for sure don't just trust them,hope you have luck.
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mb911
post Jul 7 2018, 07:55 AM
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I think he plans to try it. He is very concerned he was getting the flare up /rashes on his hands becuase of his car being full of some sort of urine from years of barn storage..
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mb911
post Jul 12 2018, 01:26 PM
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Wheels are done.. Turned out pretty nice.Attached Image
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white1975
post Jul 12 2018, 02:41 PM
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need one of these runs the car without dashAttached Image
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mb911
post Jul 13 2018, 05:38 AM
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Yes that would help quite a bit.
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