OT Anyone here ever patent something?, where to start? Options

[i love porsche]

i tried to get a preliminary patent on a lifeboat release system that i thought up in my mechanical drafting class junior year in HS, it never got finished...lemme tell you, LOTS O WORK !

[aircooledboy]

QUOTE (DipShit @ Apr 26 2005, 01:40 PM)

keep the money mongering attorney's the hell away from it.

Sufficient appreciation for ya Larry? Glad you spoke up yet?
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif)

I know I should just let it go, but I'm not in that kind of mood today. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

I'm sure you do whatever the hell it is you do at work for free, right Dipshit? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

[Engman]

Most of what I wanted to say has been said. Been thru the process every year for the last 10. Currently have 6 issued and a possible 8 more coming. Call me if you want info on the process, costs and timing. You should still have my number - if not PM me.

M

[MecGen]

I can speak for Canadian Patent, second hand, from the mouth of the person to me...
Bob had patend pro-X
Bob went to sell idea to many big Co's
Bob small time produced and distributed pro-X
Large Co (he can't tell me which ?) sells almost same product 4 mounth after....
Final result... Atty fees where WAY too much $$$, so much burden off proof, bean counting, he eccepted a settlement for the cost of the patend + Atty fees....Who won what....
Hope it helps, this is a good topic.
Later
Joe

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Katmanken]

Ahhh..... Patents....

One of my favorite subjects. I'm a Registered Patent Agent, a prolific inventor (approx 40 patents and patent applications), trained by 6 Patent Attorneys from a large company you all know, and have written over 60 patents and applications for them.

The way my engineering job is going, I could be writing patents for a living again.

Anybody need a patent written, a Patent Strategy, a design around, a patent cracked, or a very well trained Patent Agent? (Shameless plug for future employment).

Ken

[Rider914]

My sad story. . . I was always irked by the little bit of water that came out of a ketchup squeeze bottle. So I worked out a way to keep the water in the bottle, just a little straw that is on the outlet. After a few years I did a search, found nothing and started a patent on it. Half way through I heard about Heinz and their new "trap cap". Go look at your ketchup bottle and you will see my lid. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ar15.gif)

They beat me to it (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/flipa.gif)

[JoeSharpOld]

I came up with a way to alighine motorcycles with lazers and mirrors, built a working model and saw it work. I think it would even tell you how your frame was out.
Too much of a fight to try to go broke for.
Nice to have a tool no one else has.
I put two battery powered lazer pointers in brackets and hinged mirrors on a plate that could be mounted on the lower part of the wheels. the beam on the front wheel pointed the front wheel to the back one. The beam on the rear wheel was reflected off the mirrors to the targer on the front wheel. the rear beam would travel about 35 feet before it reached the target. You have 5 dots on the mirrors and how they line up tells you whats happing in the chassie.
Excuse my spellingI am in a lot of pain and vicodine keeps me from careing.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)J oe

[larryp]

Jake - I did not get your PM.

Guys, this is what I do. I have done it since 1984. Fuck, I am getting old. Let me make this plain, I bet I have gotten over 3,000 patents. Pharmaceuticals, mechanical, metallurgical, electrical, chemicals, aerospace. Um, hats, pet devices and skateboards. So I pretty much understand the economics of the process (and John, your estimates were low) and where the patents fit into the business plan.

Let me make this plain, for the vast majority of you, just stay away from it. Keep your money. It is not for the neophyte; getting a "patent" does not mean you can sell your invention, it does not mean your invention is worthwhile and it does not mean anyone else will buy it. It is nice to get a bound document with a ribbon and a seal and if that is enough for you, then fine. But to have it make sense from a business perspective you ought really to have a business in place beforehand. Many of these postings seem to be of the "gee, I have an idea" sort and that is a hard way to go. Honestly, I have a few great big companies that got the bug and a few years later realized "whoops!" because for the concept to pay off, it has to be a great big part of your R&D budget.

I dunno. I am tired and rambling and ought to shut up. To answer somwe questions. If you want to do a patent on the cheap, write up (with drawings if applicable) the idea in the form of a patent, in as detailed a manner as possible. Preferably with claims. It will be crap, but it will be text we can use. And any start is a plus; we are like taxicabs, we charge by the hour. So whatever you do will be cheaper, since we did not have to do it for you. And we do not mind; it is a plus.

What is patentable? Well, what is novel (never has been done before), nonobvious (is not obvious from what has been done before) and useful. The idea of "novelty" is not what is "commercially available"; novelty is what is not published anywhere in this or a foreign country or publicly known (i.e., not secret). (We use a lot of negatives, sorry. Try parsing out the USC sometime.) So that is why we do searches; if the invention was published in an indexed dissertation in some University library in Austria, it is not novel. That does not mean you have to do a search, you can file wiithout one. But you will generally get a better job if you do one. I can have a decent search done on a simple mechanical device for 1000. And that may be dispositive; if the search shows your idea then there is no reason to go further.

I can post links to some simple patents (skateboard, method for relining cylinder walls, a hat) tomorrow. You might find them useful. Keep in mind that each cost ca. 13,000 to file, and some more to prosecute. The hat is a big success here (though that is marketing, not the patent (it has not issued yet) and the skateboard should be but is not. That patent in particular should have been licensed to Burton or something but the inventor decided for whatever reason not to. But he is not working it either, and that may be the salient warning here. What do you want it for?

If you have no competitors, you do not need it. If your market expires quickly, you do not need it. If you can squash your competitors through other means (let's ignore the Lanham Act for a moment) you do not need it. If your market is small you (likely) do not need it.

Later.

[airsix]

Larry,
Thank you for sharing some very good advice with us. It's very appreciated.
-Ben M.

[andys]

Well, Larry has seemingly provided a down to earth perspective; reality, if you will. I agree that it best if you have a business. A patented item that you are selling/manufacturing provides legitimacey and value if you consider selling it (the company or the product). If you're a small company, I doubt you'd have the resources to protect your patent anyway. A big company can take a "sue me" attitude, and potentially tie you up until you cry uncle. One of my patents is for an existing product that my dental company currently markets and sells. I can't imagine having to try to protect it.

Andy

[GaroldShaffer]

Thanks Larry for your response here and the email you sent me. Looks like I won't bother with the patent, for many of the reason Larry mentioned. To all you others that plan to, good luck.

[Qarl]

What's the deal on Patent Pending?

Here is an example...

In Florida, we got pummeled by hurricanes last year. Some company has come up with a way to protect windows by using super-thick corrugated plastic board (sort of like the corrugated plastic you see for real estate signs, unly 3 times thicker). It attaches to your window with industrial strength velcro.

The company is called Storm-stoppers. They say they are Patent-Pending.

Here is the website... http://www.storm-stoppers.com

I found the same plastic they are using at 1/4 the cost and can get the same velcro the are using at a buck a foot.

If I wanted to sell the uncut board and velcro this hurricane season, would I be in trouble?

Or does Patent Pending, not offer any protection until a Patent is actually issued?

[bperry]

I've been through the patent process over a dozen times.
My company was sued by IBM for infringement.
Even had to go through getting a few patents thrown out
that our competitors had. Getting them thrown out is much more
difficult than getting them issued. It can be done though.
In some cases, you literally give up and negotiate the royalty because
it is just cheaper than fighting it.

There are a few other things to remember especially if you plan
on going international. There are patent filings in nearly every country.
Its a real pain.
Also, you have to be very careful not to offer your "invention" for sale
to anyone prior to getting your patent on file or else in some countries
you won't be able to get a patent.
This is where the 'Pat Pending" comes in. Once you have your device
patent filed, you can put "Pat Pending" on the unit until you get a real
patent number which will be YEARS down the road. - They are not fast.

Also, keep in mind that in order to get the patent you have to fully
describe EXACTLY how to make or reproduce your invention.
This allows everyone to see it, and from what I remember people
are allowed to create their own product for personal use and that does
not require any permission or royalties. They can't sell them.

Not only that, certain companies like IBM are watching the patent
searches (IBM used to offer all patents on line) and patents that
issue, and will start to make assumptions about what your are doing
and then toss infringement letters at you.
IBM is massive and has a zillion patents - In the tech area it is nearly
impossible to write any s/w without inadvertantly infringing on one
or more of their patents.

So in some cases if the idea is very unique but the volume is low
and the product simple to make it may make much more sense to keep it a trade secret, which has its own set of rules.
Not as much protection, but not nearly the cost either.

My opinion these days is that Patents are EVIL. They are quite often
used as offensive weapons to shut down smaller competitors rather
than to protect inventions. It is also quite easy to get stuff patented
that shouldn't be.

Did you know that at one point Texas Instruments was getting about
50 cents for every single pentium chip because they held a patent
that had a broad claim on creating a microprocessor in a single package/chip?

Unbelievable.....
--- bill

[larryp]

I think patents are "evil" is a bit of overstatement. Remember they are founded in the Constitution, since the disclosure of invention fosters development in the useful arts. In return for making disclosure you get the right to exclude others from making, using or selling your invention for a limited period of time.

BTW, that does not include for "personal use", although the prospect of suing for a one-off infringement is ridiculous.

Foreign filings quickly run into serious money but that can be deferred for quite a while by filing a US provisional, then a year later a US nonprovisional together with a PCT. That'll buy you time on your translations, which hopefully you will use to figure out if going ahead is worthwhile in the first place.

As to not making your invention publicly known before filing in the US, the answer is yes, don't, if you plan to file overseas other than Canada. Everywhere else is strict novelty and obtaining an exception to that is a costly PIA. You have one year from making an offer to sell to file in the US.

As promised, if you want to look at some very simple, basic mechanical cases here are a few.

Stereo Cover

Method of Relining Cylinders

Skateboard

Once there, you can click on images and see the thing for real.

[Mark Henry]

QUOTE (andys @ Apr 26 2005, 11:55 PM)

If you're a small company, I doubt you'd have the resources to protect your patent anyway.

True

It could cost you in the 100'sK to sue for a patent infringment and years...the whole time the copycat keeps on selling the product. After all is said and done they just agree to stop making the product, or close shop if needed.

Patents are only good for the big guys, IMHO.

[Mueller]

have you tested the skateboard??

it seems that you are limited to one steering angle (arc)

[Pompano Beach 914V8]

OK I'm going to clue you in on my idea.


This is huge!

Sell holes and price them by size. Ship them for free (they're inflatable).......but DO NOT INCLUDE INSTALLATION! The instructions would read:

Step 1 Place un-inflated hole directly over desired location.

Step 2 Dig appropriate sized receptical for hole.

Step 3 Inflate hole to proper size.

Step 4 Allow hole to drop into place.

Step 5 Properly maintain hole receptical to prevent surrounding material from
damaging or infringing on hole.

Step 6 Warning water may force hole out of receptical, protect from water and your
new hole will last for years.


Sit back and watch the cash roll in!

[bondo]

How the hell did THIS get a patent?

That can't possibly be novel. I was annoying cats with lasers before diode lasers were available.

Can I file a patent for a method of excercising a cat with a piece of string? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

[larryp]

!00,000s of dollars? No, it will cost in the millions to sue for infringement. Pretty much a minimum of 3 to get through trial, if it goes that far. Most don't, of course. These are often bet your business type lawsuits and so most settle. (Remember the Kodak instant camera technology anyone? Polaroid won nearly a billion dollars and got an injunction.)

But patents work for sole inventors as well, witness Robert Kearns and his intermittent wipers. But the estimated damages has to be worth the expense. Kearnes used contingency fee lawyers at the beginning, as did Gerald Lemelson. Both inventors made several hundred millions. Google either and have some fun.

There is no simple answer to whether or not doing this is worth it for you. The real answer involves several considerations, including your technology and whom your competitors are. Even a patent on a very simple idea can be worthwhile if it permits you to send a cease and desist letter to Sears or Home Depot etc.; they prefer not to get involved (and the indemnification from some small supplier is pretty much worthless) and so typically require their suppliers to obtain licenses immediately.

It's a rough business fellas. Which, well, I can sort of live with ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer3.gif)

Cheers.

[Mark Henry]

Hey...I was only off by one zero (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)