TYPE4PARTS PROGRAMABLE FUEL INJECTION Options

[Qarl]

Lotus was able to get about 15 more horsepower for the Elise engine (same as the Celica GTS), by adding thieir own fuel management programming... about 7% or 8%

The internals were all the same.

[jwalters]

Jet chips has also dyno'd the Stage II chip for my Dodge truck--18 hp and 24 FTLBs of TQ increase with just an optimized MODULE ,,,,,,NOT an entirley new FI sys.

People on this board can really get all out of kilter--- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

[Mueller]

the claimed improvement should not be posted unless backed up by fact with a stock motor...Jakes numbers don't count.......

as for the improved numbers by Lotus, not that big of a deal, I'm sure Toyota could have squeezed the same numbers out of the engine if they felt they needed to tune the motor to the extreme....Lotus could have just changed the rpm limit, the advance curve or something that Toyota felt was within a safe and tolerable range/limit..

I'm not saying there will not be an improvement, the motor better run as good or better with a $1500 system installed on it if it was my money (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

personally, I think for 95% of us, we wouldn;t know the difference between a MoTec, Haltech, Megasquirt or the Emerald system once installed and tuned halfway properly.

A $5K system is not going to run any better than a $1000 system unless you need all of the options and inputs/outputs available........it's all in the tuning

[lapuwali]

On Jake's page, I saw two graphs (not "lots and lots"), and neither showed a before and after with and without the EMS. Nowhere in the text does it say that the 33% increase was from the EMS system by itself.

The Jet chip is essentially doing exactly what this $1600 "upgrade" is doing for you. Replace the non-programmable, non-"chippable" ECU with a programmable ECU that you could then tune to get more power. What is 18hp in terms of percentage increase? I'll bet it's a lot less than 20%, let alone 30%.

I have no doubt that it would be possible to get 5% more power with tuning. 10% may even be reachable. More than that, you need to change something else, too. Changing the cam alone can get you 15% or more. Changing the exhaust can get you close to 10%.

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 4 2005, 06:35 PM)

the claimed improvement should not be posted unless backed up by fact with a stock motor...Jakes numbers don't count....... as for the improved numbers by Lotus, not that big of a deal, I'm sure Toyota could have squeezed the same numbers out of the engine if they felt they needed to tune the motor to the extreme....Lotus could have just changed the rpm limit, the advance curve or something that Toyota felt was within a safe and tolerable range/limit.. I'm not saying there will not be an improvement, the motor better run as good or better with a $1500 system installed on it if it was my money (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) personally, I think for 95% of us, we wouldn;t know the difference between a MoTec, Haltech, Megasquirt or the Emerald system once installed and tuned halfway properly. A $5K system is not going to run any better than a $1000 system unless you need all of the options and inputs/outputs available........it's all in the tuning

No, it is not all in the tuning, if by tuning you are referring to laptop connection and how you modulate ignition curve and pulse width.

Why would Jakes numbers not count???

I don't give a hoot about what "TYPE " of motor this is--it is still an air pump. Period.

With all of the plethoras of engines on the market from import to domestic--they all have one thing in common: They ALL respond to FI tuning parameters outside of the " BOX "

Yes, each and every one of those motors WILL make more power and TQ with a simple chip change--but if any of you ever pick up an import tuner rag and read along like skippy to see how others are tackling situations most of us as a community would be better off---again, I do not care about what type of motor this is---those of you that continue to preach about how this particular engine is so ungodly unholy different from every other airpump out there is just crap---you are impeding progress------

Why in the hell would so many of you be getting so damn caustic about " DYNO NUMBERS TO PROVE A GAIN "???? Do not a single solitary one of you own a modern automotive product??? Do you really not positivley see the benifit to going from an analog 30+ year old piece of shit FI to a modern full function digital one??? Have not a single one of you ever picked up a brochure about a particular automotive improvement or mag article explaining about how most strides in power production is done with upgrades to digital FI ???????????

You know, when I first came to this board--I was so relieved to find exploration and knowledge--but over the last few months I find only bitterness, outrage, pointing fingers, extremely bad advice, pent up rage, outwardly stupid ass people who I firmly believe are using this site to vent thier screwed up family life frustrations and GOD knows what else------I have enough problems with my life than to sit here and put up with this garbage---

Based on rhetoric and suggestions on this board, and with GREAT caution on my part, as well as educating myself on components I have not been around in about 15 years, I have come to the educated conclusion that I do not need most of all the stuff everybody " SWEARS BY "......

I am leaving and may never return--it will all be based on anything else I may or may not read----there is just too much crap here,in this land of tolerance I will no longer tolerate it---good luck to all of you

[redshift]

I have Djet, and I can tell you that my car get's a 100% perfomance gain by using it.


M

[nebreitling]

dooooood, chiiilllllllll... sounds like maybe you've got some pent up rage yourself.

less all get along....

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (Qarl @ May 4 2005, 03:15 PM)

Lotus was able to get about 15 more horsepower for the Elise engine (same as the Celica GTS), by adding thieir own fuel management programming... about 7% or 8% The internals were all the same.

Correction Lotus achieved a 10 hp increase over the Celicas Yamaha-designed 2ZZ-GE and its achieved at higher RPM. I hate to admit it, but I'm a bit of a Toyota nerd. The 2ZZ-GE also had intake and exhaust optimized by Lotus. So ECU tweeking did bring some power, but not much.

[SpecialK]

QUOTE (nebreitling @ May 4 2005, 04:08 PM)

dooooood, chiiilllllllll... sounds like maybe you've got some pent up rage yourself. less all get along....

"You know, when I first came to this board--I was so relieved to find exploration and knowledge--but over the last few months I find only bitterness, outrage, pointing fingers, extremely bad advice, pent up rage, outwardly stupid ass people who I firmly believe are using this site to vent thier screwed up family life frustrations and GOD knows what else------I have enough problems with my life than to sit here and put up with this garbage---"




Hmmm....sounds like someone needs a nap.....or a Valium....or possibly both. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

[Mueller]

QUOTE

Why in the hell would so many of you be getting so damn caustic about " DYNO NUMBERS TO PROVE A GAIN "????

We are not trying to bust Steves balls, but it's in an advertisement stating this as fact...some people that don't know better will believe it...do you believe the HP increase that companies claim by wrapping your fuel lines with magnets??? if not, why not?? it's been "proven" by somebody out there (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

QUOTE

No, it is not all in the tuning, if by tuning you are referring to laptop connection and how you modulate ignition curve and pulse width.

YES, it is ALL in the tuning....there is not a single fuel injection system out there that has artificial intelligence and can tune itself 100%

Go have a beer or two and maybe you'll feel better (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Jake Raby]

The EMS comparison on my page was done with the same advance rate in Dave's direct fire arrangement as the engine had with a Mallory, 12 degrees of advance and grey sprngs set to 28 degrees full... I plotted them just for that purpose. we had an AFR of 13:1 with carbs and 13.5:1 if I remember correctly with the EFI- nuttin else was changed and the tests were done on the same day and yielded EGT within 3% as far as I can remember. I am still at the hospital with my dad now and have no access to those records.

That test was done incredibly with very like settings, as close as one could get from carbs to EFI undoubtedly...
The engine I tested was very universal in its arrangement, the cam could work well with carbs or FI and its a rare breed.

I saw the numbers just like dave did and 3 other people in my shop, we were all totally amazed.. BTW- The FI engine ran at least 50 degree cooler head temps, even with a leaner mixture- as much as 14:1!

[tnorthern]

QUOTE

" DYNO NUMBERS TO PROVE A GAIN "????

BECAUSE THEY ARE FACTS!!!!

Thought I should shout also (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) Honestly no one would entertain this kind of silliness when building a full race engine so why for a street motor. I have ran motors on a dyno before, it's not that tough. Rent time, hook up exhaust, (you don't even need water here!), hook up fuel, give it juice, and start. From there it is a really simple process, obviously this is over simplified but hell it's close... That being said maybe some should look into Prozac (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/w00t.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

I gained 30% peak power between 1.8L engines for my race car without switching to FI! It's dyno proven.
All it took was a cam with .07 more lift, 20 deg. more duration, .5 more compression, many hours spent on the heads by Len Hoffman, assembly and optimization by Jake Raby, fully prepped carbs by Chris Foley, Evo exhaust by Tangerine, and a thousand more rpm. Piece of cake. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Steve Stromberg needs to put together an engine, install the EFI, drive a car to the local chassis dyno and show everyone first hand how good it is...
or find a guinea pig ready to spend $$ on an unproven combination. Maybe the system is so nice it won't matter whether the power is increased or not.
I'm sure that, regardless of the dyno results, it will feel good in the seat of the pants. Any smooth running 914 with more power than stock will.
I'm assembling an engine for William Harris' restoration. He wanted an improved FI system, and was going to pay for the Kit Carlson system once it was all figured out and available as a bolt on product. Time ran out though. I doubt you could convince him to lay out the $$ for the Emerald without proving it first, since he's paying someone else to put it together. We'll stick with the D-Jet and know it will run just fine as soon as it is installed. It won't cost anywhere near $1600 to tune, and he will have money left over for FI repairs in the future.

[Z Driver]

SDS makes a really nice standalone EFI system. I'm buying a SDS system for my turbo project on my Dastun. It is the easiest of all standalones to install and get working. No laptop is required baecause they give you a handheld device for that. It's ~$800 for a four cylinder system that does fuel only. I know they sell cylinder head temperature sensors for aircooled applications.

SDS EFI

[DBCooper]

I don’t know what the arguments are about. Or could be about. It seems implausible to me too, but Jake’s a respected engine builder, a pioneer of aircooled technologies, known to be honest and forthright, and he’s telling you, with charts, graphs and dyno results to prove it, that it’s possible to get a 30 percent horsepower gain with the only change being a switch to programmable fuel injection. No other change, Chris (and come to think if it, knowing this, why are you still running carbs?).

Of course your results may vary, and of course if you don’t have a dyno to help tune you’ll almost certainly get less, but where else are you going to get that kind of horsepower gain for fifteen hundred bucks? If you want to dump on Steve, fine, but don’t challenge his veracity because he indicated that 30 percent more HP is possible. That's not right.

[machina]

QUOTE (Paul Illick @ May 5 2005, 06:45 AM)

Chris (and come to think if it, knowing this, why are you still running carbs?).

SCCA Production Car rules.....

[Ray Warren]

QUOTE (Z Driver @ May 5 2005, 01:10 AM)

SDS makes a really nice standalone EFI system. I'm buying a SDS system for my turbo project on my Dastun. It is the easiest of all standalones to install and get working. No laptop is required baecause they give you a handheld device for that. It's ~$800 for a four cylinder system that does fuel only. I know they sell cylinder head temperatures for aircooled applications. SDS EFI

I just installed a SDS fuel only system on my car.
So far so good.
Starts good, idles good and drives good.
I still have some "experimenting" to do though.
I will be posting pics of the install in the next couple of weeks.

[tat2dphreak]

ya'll lost me WAY back, but it's fascinating... it's like hearing pilots talk, I have no idea what's going on, but it sounds cool...

and this thread helped me a lot... I KNOW I'm not going EFI until I have a friend close by that knows all of this shit...

[rhodyguy]

challenging a person's voracity is completely acceptable if they outright lie to you. i'm pushing on the tredle to get the grinding wheel up to speed.

k

[Jake Raby]

I chose SDS for the electronics portion of my EFI kits to be used on all future engines here at RAT. There were many reasons for this including the huge simplicity advantage that it has over all other systems. Simplicity is a must because most of my customers are not "wrenchs" in the engine department- those guys buy the parts from the store and do it them selves.

When I put together my FI kits (which are being tested as we speak against carbs on 9 different engines here at the shop) I wanted an engineered, compatible 100% complete system from the fuel pump to the pressure regulator and everything between.

I have also switched ALL of my personal cars to the same system so I can experience the same changes and tuning experiences that my customers will see and face- it will help me to further the development greatly.

Any product that has the important task of both feeding the engine with fuel and doing so with accuracy and easability had better be tested to an extent that never really ends. In this indistry so many things are just made to run on one engine (if that) and then sold to the market as being perfect... It sucks.

Development and testing costs and costs a lot- more than anything else involved with my shop undoubtedly, but it is a necessity. I will be sharing my EFI charts and comparative tests in a library on the site as we gather more results and gain more and more experience with the system. I have 7 engines to test with EFI in the next month or so and all of them will first be tested with carbs, the most exploratory will be my 3 liter... I am sure it will see huge gains because the engine needs the added air so badly!

If a product isn't tested, proven and if the seller cannot cough up data on demand it should not be sold- its not really a product.