Money and motor options, What is a realistic budget and parts list Options

[Mueller]

[quote name='struckn' date='Mar 16 2017, 12:27 PM' post='2464773']
[quote name='thelogo' date='Mar 14 2017, 08:00 PM' post='2464289']
[quote name='Mike D.' post='2464240' date='Mar 14 2017, 06:03 PM']
[quote name='thelogo' post='2464233' date='Mar 14 2017, 05:42 PM']

How do you fuck up a single carb (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)
[/quote]

You don't, it fucks you up. They are POS. And lose the mechanic that won't work on your car.

Alright I have to respond to the question above. Here again is my Video of my Single Weber 1.8 with the correct Cam and attention to the carb floats adjustments done by Tony at Translog GT to make it run right.


https://youtu.be/H4t0M2wrhu8

Doug
[/quote]

It has been proven they "work" but why not go the extra step for just few hundred dollars more to go twin carb which is proven to work better?

If the OP just wants a running car and doesn't mind a compromise the single carb can "work".

Will he be happy six month later wondering if it would be improved upon? Maybe, maybe not.


thelogo,

The problem that arises from adapting fuel injection from other model vehicles is the tuning. The volumetric efficiency and spark timing curves will be different. Some you can modify easily and others you won't be able to change anything so you run the risk of too lean or too rich as well as too far advanced in timing.

Adapting FI from another vehicle is one of those things that if you have to ask if it can be done, it is not a job for you or for your mechanic unless you have deep pockets.

LJet can be had for free to a few hundred dollars. I got mine for free, I just had to pay shipping.

However just like DJet, if you are not 100% familiar with it and not everything is in tip top shape it will give you fits.

Very simple, plenty of online resources that describe how it operates and what is related to what on the system. (same goes for Djet)

[thelogo]

Okay well if you insist.

You can spend some serious coin on a type-4 engine build.

Im starting to realize that
But i think sticking with the type 4
Is better then the alternative
(6 or water cooled )

Great advice on the 1911

[914sgofast2]

The answer to building a good engine with the Djet system is to be methodical and not take shortcuts when you are rebuilding/testing the various Djet components. I just finished rebuilding the 1.7 in my son's early 1970 model year 914. It has the least amount of factory smog control compromises of any 914; they did not even have a factory PCV valve or orifice - they just had the vent pipe on the oil filler chimney connected with a hose to the side of the oil bath air cleaner housing. Later cars had it plumbed into the intake plenum with a PCV valve/orifice in the oil filler housing.

Anyway, if you want a good performing Djet, I would recommend starting with the system components from an early 1970 model year 914 since they have the least amount of factory smog modifications/settings made to the distributor and fuel injection tuning in the ECU.

Use a distributor, ECU and MPS suitable designed for use on a 1970 model year 914. There are charts of the part numbers to use for this model year at Bowlby's site or there has links to them at his website.

In making the Djet work properly on my son's car, I did the following: (a) rebuilt the Djet wiring harness myself (or you can buy one from Bowlsby); (b) replaced all 4 fuel injectors with NEW black ones from Standard I got from Parts Geek (found that using rebuilt Bosch yellow ones was a waste of money - they always ended up leaking from the housing); © cleaned the distributor completely, including the advance weights and the fuel injection trigger point unit. Most important, test the vacuum advance & retard unit for leaks. If the distributor vacuum unit leaks, buy a new one.

It is also critical to test the auxiliary air regulator (AAR) valve that adjusts/controls the cold and hot engine idle. (The test is described on Bowlsby's site) If the AAR is not shutting off when hot, it will drive you crazy searching for mysterious vacuum leaks because it does not close entirely when the engine warms up. The symptom of a bad AAR is a hot engine that will not idle down low enough and will not hold an even idle speed. It acts just like it has a huge vacuum leak, because that is what it is. The AAR is not shutting off the flow of air into the intake plenum, which results in an overly lean mixture when hot. This causes the engine idle to hunt, confusing the MPS and ECU and making it impossible to set the idle on a hot engine to below 1800 RPM or so. We ended up simply removing the AAR and plugging the inlet pipe in the intake plenum because we could not find a good used AAR and new ones are unobtanium. This means we no longer have a cold engine fast idle on initial start up, but the engine's hot idle can now be adjusted to the correct RPM when warmed up. I spent weeks chasing down this problem looking for phantom vacuum leaks because it idled perfectly when cold, but once the engine got hot the engine idle hunted all over the place and would not settle down.

Make sure the MPS unit will hold vacuum for at least 15 minutes without losing any vacuum. If it won't, you need to replace it. An engine with a leaking MPS will never run properly since the Djet is a vacuum based fuel injection system.

There are also the standard precautions to be observed. Set the timing correctly for the full advance around 3500 RPM. Make sure the valves are correctly adjusted.

Last, but not least, we used a set of the factory "Euro" high compression pistons in the 1.7 and carefully set the deck height of the pistons when we rebuilt the engine so the compression ratio wasn't too high.

You should end up with an engine likes to rev because it has a shorter stroke than a 2 liter and due to the absence of the smog settings/compromises to fuel ratios and distributor timing the later fuel injected engines had to endure. It also avoids the cylinder heads that are prone to cracking and dropping valve seats as found on the 2 liter engines. The reason Porsche kept increasing engine sizes in the 914 and redoing the heads was to make up for the power loses the later year engines suffered when trying to meet the increasingly strict emissions requirements in the 1971 to 1975 era. In those days, each year the engines had to run cleaner and cleaner and the emissions technology knowledge was just developing step by step. Like I said, our early 1970 (with a December 1969 build date) did not even have a PCV system like the later ones did.

You should be able to build one of these 1.7s in an "early" state of tune for far less than $5,000. We did. No one sees any value in Djet parts for the 1.7 engines, especially the early ones. Take advantage of it now before the prices go up.

[struckn]

Alright I have to respond to the question above. Here again is my Video of my Single Weber 1.8 with the correct Cam and attention to the carb floats adjustments done by Tony at Translog GT to make it run right.


https://youtu.be/H4t0M2wrhu8

Doug
[/quote]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It has been proven they "work" but why not go the extra step for just few hundred dollars more to go twin carb which is proven to work better?

If the OP just wants a running car and doesn't mind a compromise the single carb can "work".

Will he be happy six month later wondering if it would be improved upon? Maybe, maybe not.

Replying to above but first repeating the original post in the beginning he wanted:

1st off the engine im going for in no way needs to
Be optimised for performance screwy.gif stirthepot.gif

What is the best combo for just cool reliable running In socal heat .

Im trying to stay clear of d jet poke.gif bootyshake.gif

So carbs or i like cb performance f.i kit but know little actually about it .

Now what I'm saying is single carb is least expensive, runs reliably, and is low maintenance easy to understand and work on. When Translog worked on the car I asked Tony to set it up for a two carb to be done later on. I'm happy with how it is and tuning a two carb is problematic if you don't know what you're doing[i]. I have a perfectly running car and don't want to touch it to screw it up.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mueller]

True bumper sticker I just saw;

"I'd rather walk than drive a single carb'd Type IV" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

......

If you go down Ljet path I'd look at upgrading the ignition. The 123ignition stuff is really tempting.

[struckn]

Forgot to mention My 2V Weber has an Electric Choke!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hide.gif)

[thelogo]

The answer to building a good engine with the Djet system is to be methodical and not take shortcuts when you are rebuilding/testing the various Djet components. I just finished rebuilding the 1.7 in my son's early 1970 model year 914. It has the least amount of factory smog control compromises of any 914; they did not even have a factory PCV valve or orifice - they just had the vent pipe on the oil filler chimney connected with a hose to the side of the oil bath air cleaner housing. Later cars had it plumbed into the intake plenum with a PCV valve/orifice in the oil filler housing.

Anyway, if you want a good performing Djet, I would recommend starting with the system components from an early 1970 model year 914 since they have the least amount of factory smog modifications/settings made to the distributor and fuel injection tuning in the ECU.

Use a distributor, ECU and MPS suitable designed for use on a 1970 model year 914. There are charts of the part numbers to use for this model year at Bowlby's site or there has links to them at his website.

In making the Djet work properly on my son's car, I did the following: (a) rebuilt the Djet wiring harness myself (or you can buy one from Bowlsby); (b) replaced all 4 fuel injectors with NEW black ones from Standard I got from Parts Geek (found that using rebuilt Bosch yellow ones was a waste of money - they always ended up leaking from the housing); © cleaned the distributor completely, including the advance weights and the fuel injection trigger point unit. Most important, test the vacuum advance & retard unit for leaks. If the distributor vacuum unit leaks, buy a new one.

It is also critical to test the auxiliary air regulator (AAR) valve that adjusts/controls the cold and hot engine idle. (The test is described on Bowlsby's site) If the AAR is not shutting off when hot, it will drive you crazy searching for mysterious vacuum leaks because it does not close entirely when the engine warms up. The symptom of a bad AAR is a hot engine that will not idle down low enough and will not hold an even idle speed. It acts just like it has a huge vacuum leak, because that is what it is. The AAR is not shutting off the flow of air into the intake plenum, which results in an overly lean mixture when hot. This causes the engine idle to hunt, confusing the MPS and ECU and making it impossible to set the idle on a hot engine to below 1800 RPM or so. We ended up simply removing the AAR and plugging the inlet pipe in the intake plenum because we could not find a good used AAR and new ones are unobtanium. This means we no longer have a cold engine fast idle on initial start up, but the engine's hot idle can now be adjusted to the correct RPM when warmed up. I spent weeks chasing down this problem looking for phantom vacuum leaks because it idled perfectly when cold, but once the engine got hot the engine idle hunted all over the place and would not settle down.

Make sure the MPS unit will hold vacuum for at least 15 minutes without losing any vacuum. If it won't, you need to replace it. An engine with a leaking MPS will never run properly since the Djet is a vacuum based fuel injection system.

There are also the standard precautions to be observed. Set the timing correctly for the full advance around 3500 RPM. Make sure the valves are correctly adjusted.

Last, but not least, we used a set of the factory "Euro" high compression pistons in the 1.7 and carefully set the deck height of the pistons when we rebuilt the engine so the compression ratio wasn't too high.

You should end up with an engine likes to rev because it has a shorter stroke than a 2 liter and due to the absence of the smog settings/compromises to fuel ratios and distributor timing the later fuel injected engines had to endure. It also avoids the cylinder heads that are prone to cracking and dropping valve seats as found on the 2 liter engines. The reason Porsche kept increasing engine sizes in the 914 and redoing the heads was to make up for the power loses the later year engines suffered when trying to meet the increasingly strict emissions requirements in the 1971 to 1975 era. In those days, each year the engines had to run cleaner and cleaner and the emissions technology knowledge was just developing step by step. Like I said, our early 1970 (with a December 1969 build date) did not even have a PCV system like the later ones did.

You should be able to build one of these 1.7s in an "early" state of tune for far less than $5,000. We did. No one sees any value in Djet parts for the 1.7 engines, especially the early ones. Take advantage of it now before the prices go up.

I have great respect for all the great info you gave and effort you make
But it has just convinced me that the djet has gotta go.
Too much to go wrong to fragile , to difficult to fiddle with for me personally.
And for all that trouble you get great driveablity
But not much reliability

Im looking for something proven and rock solid
Not porcelain fragile and tempermental

Credit to my current djet for lasting 40 years ,but
Obviously it was never intended to carry on this long

[mepstein]

If you find a more reliable, affordable, bolt on solution than factory FI, let me know. Until then, I'll be driving my d-jet 914.

[914werke]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[thelogo]

If you find a more reliable, affordable, bolt on solution than factory FI, let me know. Until then, I'll be driving my d-jet 914.

If after 40+ years no one has come up with it
Then maybe it doesn't exist.

But those germans are some crafty bastards

[Mueller]

If you find a more reliable, affordable, bolt on solution than factory FI, let me know. Until then, I'll be driving my d-jet 914.

If after 40+ years no one has come up with it
Then maybe it doesn't exist.

But those germans are some crafty bastards

Basic descriptions....

Djet = analog or mechanical

Modern EFI = digital

trigger method:
djet = mechanical points (replacements can be found NOS or replaced with digital points)

modern = crank position sensor (these die and leave you stranded, hard to replace depending on location)


air flow:
djet = mps which uses a inductance via a bellows (brand new bellows assembly available)
modern = hot wire or map (these are known to die, just replaced one in the family Volvo, wasn't cheap)

tps:
djet, mechanical sweeper, (I think NOS or maybe replacements available)
modern = digital potonimeter (another item that is not 100% bullet proof)

So everything fails at one point or another. If the Djet was "that" bad it wouldn't still be around on thousands of cars still and someone would have come up with a bolt on solution to replace it. (used on more than just 914's)

[thelogo]

If you find a more reliable, affordable, bolt on solution than factory FI, let me know. Until then, I'll be driving my d-jet 914.

If after 40+ years no one has come up with it
Then maybe it doesn't exist.

But those germans are some crafty bastards

Basic descriptions....

Djet = analog or mechanical

Modern EFI = digital

trigger method:
djet = mechanical points (replacements can be found NOS or replaced with digital points)

modern = crank position sensor (these die and leave you stranded, hard to replace depending on location)


air flow:
djet = mps which uses a inductance via a bellows (brand new bellows assembly available)
modern = hot wire or map (these are known to die, just replaced one in the family Volvo, wasn't cheap)

tps:
djet, mechanical sweeper, (I think NOS or maybe replacements available)
modern = digital potonimeter (another item that is not 100% bullet proof)

So everything fails at one point or another. If the Djet was "that" bad it wouldn't still be around on thousands of cars still and someone would have come up with a bolt on solution to replace it. (used on more than just 914's)

Great info ,,and thanks for dumbing it down so i can understand

So it looks like im sticking with djet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) druck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

Until system failure

Then ill be shopping for carbs and cam ..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

[thelogo]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

Purr

Meow

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[Mueller]

I'm not going to lie, if I stumbled upon a pair of carbs at a great price I'd probably jump on them and ditch what I have.

[thelogo]

I'm not going to lie, if I stumbled upon a pair of carbs at a great price I'd probably jump on them and ditch what I have.

Just so i can keep an eye out

What is a great set of carbs .


1.webers ,spain ,Italian or chinese s (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)
2. Dells
3. Weber copies ? Empi ?


Any of those ?

Call me crazy i know f.i or modern f.i is technically best but

A motor refresh , carb cam, new valvetrain and dual carbs
Sound like a hell of alot better then the djet thats just go's
Buzzzzzzzz on down the road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/flag.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving-girl.gif)



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif)

[AZBanks]

My next engine upgrade.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/home.oap


Enter "121g" in the search box.

[rush]

Does anyone know of a available L jet system 4 sale or Trade?
Would like to try it

[JamesM]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)


Sound advice d.d

Im happy with a 1.7

Not happy with djet .

Funny story, I took a bone stock 1.7 d-jet car to RRC last year and wound up passing a couple carbed 2056 cars on the high altitude climbs. They were sputtering out while the d-jet kept my 1.7 running like a sewing machine. I can stand outside the car, turn the key and start it in pretty much any temperature at any altitude and almost always on the first compression stroke to boot. If you are running a stock motor and are not happy with d-jet you are doing something wrong. As an added bonus the 1.7 d-jet parts tend to be fairly cheap in comparison to other options. If you mod the motor its a different story but i cant see why anyone running a stock 1.7 would run anything but d-jet, that is unless you want to spend the money to go full custom fuel injection but that is a LOT more work.

[914forme]

Carbs,

Best drivability are Dellortos 36mm for your engine.
Next would be Webers, Italian, Spain, avoid all else unless you have to. These will be 40mm 44 and 48 are to big.

BTW, them Germans being crafty bastards happened to us carbs, on some of the European 914s. And I am not talking 914-6s I am talking -4s Some times you can find these also.

I would also not shy away from the single barrel dual carb units on a basic 1.7L build. Used a lot in the VW crowd, and a re a good little carb if your not looking for big numbers.

Here is a set of Redline Weber single carbs, $419 not sure of quality

And a good article on understanding VW carbs.

And Ebay Dell 36mm complete kit, there about, you will also need a fuel pump. I like the CB Performance Rotaries.

[Mark Henry]

Does anyone know of a available L jet system 4 sale or Trade?
Would like to try it

Put a WTB in the classifieds, lots of them out there.