1st off the engine im going for in no way needs to
Be optimised for performance


What is the best combo for just cool reliable running
In socal heat .



Im trying to stay clear of d jet

So carbs or i like cb performance f.i kit but know little actually about it .



What

Crank
Pistons
Rods
Cam
Cyclinder s
Fuel delivery

Etc should i be putting together and what kinda budget windfall
Should i be prepared for .

I know its a sickness but cant be that expensive?

I will use a machine shop to build the motor
That have extensive experience with type 4
So i know thats gonna cost me major $








Talk to me about proven engine combinatios

Im looking for air cooled type 4

And basically the exact opposite of this

I think McMark does the 2056 for about $5k , don't think that includes the fuel delivery.

So figure another grand for for fuel and spark.

A sock 1.7 should hold up just fine under darned near any circumstances you throw at it. If you want to avoid D-jet, stick some Dells on it. Maybe drop the compression to the lower 73 CA-only spec (about 7.6:1) so you don't have to run premium.

You said it wasn't about performance....

--DD

Thats pretty much the setup im runnin now

1.7 d,jet not running correctly, may just be f.i related

But

Do i rebuild a separate 1.7 and swap in

Wait till my 1.7 breaks down then rebuild it


It it even worth it building a fresh 1.7 or does that cost the same as a 2056 ?

Thats a pretty doable budget i think
As long as its cheaper than a / 6 six

Depends on what you are starting with.

66mm or 71mm crank?
1.7 block/heads or 1.8/2.0 b&h?
new or used carbs?

You can hit $10k pretty quick if you veer far enough away from stock.

I find a stock 2.0 pretty decent.

I'd ask the shop what they like and what they might have stashed in storage.


"socal heat" My high today was your summer high average.

Look for a complete 2.0 core, tear it down to a long block and take it down to Jorge at EMW.

He can give you options, he's easy to work with, and you can do the tins, fan shroud, powder coating & painting yourself.

He takes CASH too.

I made payments to him.

My $.02

Most people won't get what I'm saying but here's where I'm at. In tune with KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID, and I'm talking about me, not anyone else, we all have are own ideas, but I will say some get in over their heads trying to do it their self and dreaming of major improvements in a short period of time.

I have a '74 1.8 that came with a SIMPLE Single 2V Weber 32/36 Carb. Five years ago it dropped a Valve Seat so I took it to Translog GT for a complete mechanical inspection and overhaul resulting in installation of a new Carb Cam, (2) replacement Heads splitting the case new Bearings, Valve Seats, Fuel Pump, SS Fuel Lines, pulling the Trans axle New Clutch, Bearings, Shift linkage Bushings, Heat Billows replacement wiring and everything else that was needed to make it as dependable and as problem free as possible. In the last five years I have not had to make any adjustments, or replace any parts, other then an Oil and filter. The cost was around $5K with the understanding it would be a few months to allow them to get it done when convenient to the operation of their shop, and a pay as it goes terms. Documentation of Time and Material provided.

I'd have no concern driving it every day, or cross county.......except my 'Ol body in the car would probably fall apart before anything on the car would.

Another option is a WTB request. Every year, many guys on this site convert to a six and sell their four. Many times the engine is in great running condition. It might not happen right away but it always happens. Dion just sold his. Ran like a top, looked great but he got 6 fever. I brought home a good running, complete with FI and tin, 2.0 from Virginia for a local 914 owner for $1,000. That was a no brainer.

When we were at Octeenerfest, Bob told me that half of the participants were not on 914world. I bought a great car from CA for $2,500 from the 914 yahoo group. So as big as 914world is, don't be afraid to reach out to other sources.

sort out the d-jet your car should be worth more with FI than a single carb, which is the cheapest way to go.

Since you're in SoCal ....

I'm not sure exactly when they were supposed to close, but you might try getting with Ron at FAT Performance in Orange before he retires, to both advise you on what to build, & to build it if there's enough time before he hangs up the wrenches.

FAT Performance has been building T-IVs since the came out in the late 1960s - for both street & competition - & many/most of the other engine builders learned from him.

If he can't build it for you, then he may be able to recco the best shop. Tuttle's in LA has been doing VW engine rebuilds for decades.

A 2.0 with Euro heads would give you a boost of HP & TQ over the stock GA 2.0 or 1.7, but you may need to bump to mid-grade or premium gas.

I don't know that going to carbs will solve your problem, as the D-jet EFI was a great system for those who knew how to tune them properly.

You my try Bill Brewster in South OC (San Clemente IIRC) or Der Buggy in Garden Grove to see if they can sort out your D-jet issue, before jumping to a new motor.

Bruce Stone/bdstone may also have a shop in the IE who knows T4 motors & D-jet.

PS - I think the optimal bore/stroke max on a 1.7 without compromising heat & driveablity is 1911cc.

Good Luck!
Tom
///////

I'd say wait until yours is on the way out. Or get a spare (core 1.7s should be cheap!) and build it as time and budget allow.

A 1.7 should be more reliable than a 2.0 or a 2056. They tend to be less stressed, have more robust rod journals, have heads that are less prone to cracking, and have less demanded of them.

--DD

Sound advice d.d

Im happy with a 1.7

Not happy with djet .

Could be operator error

Any fuel system be it a single carb or even a $5,000 Motec system can give you fits if not in tip top shape and if you don't know how to work on it, you could spend $10K on a new motor with modern EFI or dual carbs and be miserable if not tuned correctly or you miss a simple vacuum line.

I'd go thru all the basic troubleshooting of the FI and ignition 1st as well as a full tune up.

Yeh anything is possible
But just to clarify i really never turn wrench s
On my cars

Im the driver " they told me to get in the car an drive an i could drive "

I leave the tune ups and maintenance to a professional air cooled guy with 40years experience.
But he refuses to deal with djet

So there i am

[quote name='Mueller' date='Mar 14 2017, 03:59 PM' post='2464197']
[quote name='thelogo' post='2464191' date='Mar 14 2017, 03:41 PM']



Sound advice d.d

Im happy with a 1.7

Not happy with djet .
[/quote]


Could be operator error

Any fuel system be it a single carb















How do you fuck up a single carb

You don't, it fucks you up. They are POS. And lose the mechanic that won't work on your car.

Take it to Leamon in Tajunga. PM him, he's HeelToe914

[quote name='thelogo' date='Mar 14 2017, 05:42 PM' post='2464233']
[quote name='Mueller' date='Mar 14 2017, 03:59 PM' post='2464197']
[quote name='thelogo' post='2464191' date='Mar 14 2017, 03:41 PM']


Sound advice d.d

Im happy with a 1.7

Not happy with djet .
[/quote]

Could be operator error

Any fuel system be it a single carb

How do you fuck up a single carb
[/quote]

Easy, they are already not the best solution for our motors, but they can be made worse by tweaking the settings, some people shouldn't be allowed to own a screw driver! Lot's of car problems are blamed on the fuel system when in fact the problems could be poorly adjusting valves or ignition problems.

Do or dont get me wrong djet is great

If they start makeing all new parts id buy them and go go go






With the exception of guys who shouldnt own a screwdriver


Carbs are universally understood by mechanics all across the world and the guys that know djet are either too old or retired to fix/ fiddle with it


Im hopeing for a hail mary with this cb performance f.i kit


But if it ends up carbs so be it

Leamon is the coolest guy ever
And yeh im sure he could help
And the guy always seem to find the great cars too


And my mechanic does a great job on the car
But he told me . Way back when i got the car

That the car was running well and he didnt really
Touch the injection and every thing seems fine

He recommended that as long as its all good to
Run the djet

And if it becomes a issue install webers

Not any more. The younger crop of mechanics doesn't seem to know a venturi from a float bowl. Then again, it's been several decades since any new car in the US was sold with a carb.

--DD

$3000 for the CB Performance EFI, and that doesn't include the tuning, ouch.

Tangerine Racing makes a rebuild kit for the MPS, the rest of the parts can easily be found.

3k is pretty steep . Ive seen a 914 that used vw rabbit fuel injection

And im sure you could by a old rabbit for less then 3k

I know the owner that did that, he is a member here. however you are not going to easily find a mechanic to install it for you, and if you did convince him to take your money it will not be cheap since it will not be a bolt on item. You might as well spend the $3K on the CB stuff.

How does the D-jet and other 914 FI systems pick up the engine RPMS?
Is there a trigger/trigger wheel in the distributor or somewhere else on the engine?

I dont think it picks up the rpms at all, at least there's no trigger wheel to speak of unless it somehow picks up the signal from the distributor. I think it operates solely on manifold vacuum and engine temperatures. (I threw the D-jet out first thing I did and never paid much attention to it)

The one-stop-shops that are often recommended are http://www.originalcustoms.com/ and http://www.thedubshop.net/

Trigger points run off the dizzy shaft. They fire injectors in pairs.

The D-jet is a speed density based system. Once you know the rotating speed and manifold air density, in theory you know how much air the engine is inhaling. Consequently, you know how much fuel is needed. Speed is picked up thru trigger points in the dittsy and the manifold pressure and temperature sensors then get the density.
Of course, there are some other tweaks involved like the cold start injector to provide an extra rich mixture for cold starting, and the throttle valve assembly has provision to fire the injectors more rapidly for acceleration.
Some caveats however, this theory breaks down if exhaust gas recirculation is used as now you don't know the oxygen percentage in the incoming air and racing cams with large overlaps give mixed signals to the manifold pressure sensor.

EGR was an issue for the use of the L-jet system, and all modern FI systems now use a rather simple heated wire probe to measure incoming air volume.

Cheap (ish) FI I'd go with a fresh 914 2.0 2056, 73 web cam and use the 914 L-jet system.

Oh, look! A spammer has joined us!

--DD

The reason I asked is because I have a business partner who builds custom VEMS based engine management systems for all the various 944s, 911's, BMW's, etc.

Would there be a market for a modern, easily tunable, ECU replacement for the 914?
It would be built to be a plug and play system. It would include a base tune in the package price and good after sale support. The package price would be around $1500.

This is the website for VEMS

http://www.vems.hu/

Here is my partners Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/vemsporsche

Knowing this crowd I'd say no, he may sell a few systems here and there, but not many.

I'm sure a few people might be interested, but between McMark offering something based on the Microsquirt, the dubshop with his setup and MSPro for the other DIY guys the market is fairly small.

A few years ago I would have said sell it, spend the 5K and upgrade to a nicer 914. That math might still work for you.

What happened to buy the nicest car you can afford

For the same budget 2 people could get vastly different condition 914's, a lot of it is luck and timing and sometimes knowing people.

I bought a non-runner in decent condition for $2000 and a few months later a member here posted a way better and nicer running car he got for $2500.

On the flip side we've seen people buy and sell more or less basket cases for thousands more (or for some try to sell)

No idea what you paid for your 914, but if it was just a couple of grand like mine, unless you are lucky sometimes you get what you pay for. The guys that can shell out $8,000 or $15,000+ for a car have a better chance of getting a super nice condition and great running car.

I'm okay with my choice, mine is too far from being a show winner and I refuse to spend money on it to restore it to showroom condition.

I like the one recommendation on the L-jet conversion, very simple FI and I've had it on 1.8's and I converted a 2.0 over to it. My current 1.8 that I am rebuilding will run LJet if the camshaft plays nice with it.

So other then L-jet

You could say there is no specific
Proven d-jet replacement or kit

Thus requires custom an expensive
One off design s

Or a talented mechanic or tech that can adapt
Systems to work using parts an pieces
Removed from available cars




I honestly dont mind spending some coin
If its worth it and proven

I imagine Ljet is more budget friendly then others
But what are the pros cons ? ,cost ?

---------------------

Update and at the moment im pretty sure
My intake boots rubber is totally shot

[quote name='thelogo' date='Mar 14 2017, 08:00 PM' post='2464289']
[quote name='Mike D.' post='2464240' date='Mar 14 2017, 06:03 PM']
[quote name='thelogo' post='2464233' date='Mar 14 2017, 05:42 PM']

How do you fuck up a single carb
[/quote]

You don't, it fucks you up. They are POS. And lose the mechanic that won't work on your car.




Alright I have to respond to the question above. Here again is my Video of my Single Weber 1.8 with the correct Cam and attention to the carb floats adjustments done by Tony at Translog GT to make it run right.


https://youtu.be/H4t0M2wrhu8

Doug

Okay well if you insist.

Take a 1.7 or 1.8L, I would try and find a 1.8L, bore it out the jugs to 96mm run a set of keith black pistons, and build a nice 1911, they are great little engines. Run a nice microsquirt or Megasquirt system on them. For an easy system I would use the 1.8L side intake with the Vanagon TB.

Add a set of 1.7L rockers with 911 swivel feet adjusters and a good cam, and go from there.

If you feel like spending dollars, get yourself a Tangerine Racing EVO Header and muffler, works of art and proven to make Horspower, well worth the $$$. I had one and just sat it on the bench and at it for days on end. Really cut into my productivity. I have also used a Kerry Hunter, a home built unit, stock stuff. Tangerine was the best value once you look at the quality verses the price.

You can spend some serious coin on a type-4 engine build.

[quote name='struckn' date='Mar 16 2017, 12:27 PM' post='2464773']
[quote name='thelogo' date='Mar 14 2017, 08:00 PM' post='2464289']
[quote name='Mike D.' post='2464240' date='Mar 14 2017, 06:03 PM']
[quote name='thelogo' post='2464233' date='Mar 14 2017, 05:42 PM']

How do you fuck up a single carb
[/quote]

You don't, it fucks you up. They are POS. And lose the mechanic that won't work on your car.

Alright I have to respond to the question above. Here again is my Video of my Single Weber 1.8 with the correct Cam and attention to the carb floats adjustments done by Tony at Translog GT to make it run right.


https://youtu.be/H4t0M2wrhu8

Doug
[/quote]

It has been proven they "work" but why not go the extra step for just few hundred dollars more to go twin carb which is proven to work better?

If the OP just wants a running car and doesn't mind a compromise the single carb can "work".

Will he be happy six month later wondering if it would be improved upon? Maybe, maybe not.


thelogo,

The problem that arises from adapting fuel injection from other model vehicles is the tuning. The volumetric efficiency and spark timing curves will be different. Some you can modify easily and others you won't be able to change anything so you run the risk of too lean or too rich as well as too far advanced in timing.

Adapting FI from another vehicle is one of those things that if you have to ask if it can be done, it is not a job for you or for your mechanic unless you have deep pockets.

LJet can be had for free to a few hundred dollars. I got mine for free, I just had to pay shipping.

However just like DJet, if you are not 100% familiar with it and not everything is in tip top shape it will give you fits.

Very simple, plenty of online resources that describe how it operates and what is related to what on the system. (same goes for Djet)

Im starting to realize that
But i think sticking with the type 4
Is better then the alternative
(6 or water cooled )

Great advice on the 1911

The answer to building a good engine with the Djet system is to be methodical and not take shortcuts when you are rebuilding/testing the various Djet components. I just finished rebuilding the 1.7 in my son's early 1970 model year 914. It has the least amount of factory smog control compromises of any 914; they did not even have a factory PCV valve or orifice - they just had the vent pipe on the oil filler chimney connected with a hose to the side of the oil bath air cleaner housing. Later cars had it plumbed into the intake plenum with a PCV valve/orifice in the oil filler housing.

Anyway, if you want a good performing Djet, I would recommend starting with the system components from an early 1970 model year 914 since they have the least amount of factory smog modifications/settings made to the distributor and fuel injection tuning in the ECU.

Use a distributor, ECU and MPS suitable designed for use on a 1970 model year 914. There are charts of the part numbers to use for this model year at Bowlby's site or there has links to them at his website.

In making the Djet work properly on my son's car, I did the following: (a) rebuilt the Djet wiring harness myself (or you can buy one from Bowlsby); (b) replaced all 4 fuel injectors with NEW black ones from Standard I got from Parts Geek (found that using rebuilt Bosch yellow ones was a waste of money - they always ended up leaking from the housing); © cleaned the distributor completely, including the advance weights and the fuel injection trigger point unit. Most important, test the vacuum advance & retard unit for leaks. If the distributor vacuum unit leaks, buy a new one.

It is also critical to test the auxiliary air regulator (AAR) valve that adjusts/controls the cold and hot engine idle. (The test is described on Bowlsby's site) If the AAR is not shutting off when hot, it will drive you crazy searching for mysterious vacuum leaks because it does not close entirely when the engine warms up. The symptom of a bad AAR is a hot engine that will not idle down low enough and will not hold an even idle speed. It acts just like it has a huge vacuum leak, because that is what it is. The AAR is not shutting off the flow of air into the intake plenum, which results in an overly lean mixture when hot. This causes the engine idle to hunt, confusing the MPS and ECU and making it impossible to set the idle on a hot engine to below 1800 RPM or so. We ended up simply removing the AAR and plugging the inlet pipe in the intake plenum because we could not find a good used AAR and new ones are unobtanium. This means we no longer have a cold engine fast idle on initial start up, but the engine's hot idle can now be adjusted to the correct RPM when warmed up. I spent weeks chasing down this problem looking for phantom vacuum leaks because it idled perfectly when cold, but once the engine got hot the engine idle hunted all over the place and would not settle down.

Make sure the MPS unit will hold vacuum for at least 15 minutes without losing any vacuum. If it won't, you need to replace it. An engine with a leaking MPS will never run properly since the Djet is a vacuum based fuel injection system.

There are also the standard precautions to be observed. Set the timing correctly for the full advance around 3500 RPM. Make sure the valves are correctly adjusted.

Last, but not least, we used a set of the factory "Euro" high compression pistons in the 1.7 and carefully set the deck height of the pistons when we rebuilt the engine so the compression ratio wasn't too high.

You should end up with an engine likes to rev because it has a shorter stroke than a 2 liter and due to the absence of the smog settings/compromises to fuel ratios and distributor timing the later fuel injected engines had to endure. It also avoids the cylinder heads that are prone to cracking and dropping valve seats as found on the 2 liter engines. The reason Porsche kept increasing engine sizes in the 914 and redoing the heads was to make up for the power loses the later year engines suffered when trying to meet the increasingly strict emissions requirements in the 1971 to 1975 era. In those days, each year the engines had to run cleaner and cleaner and the emissions technology knowledge was just developing step by step. Like I said, our early 1970 (with a December 1969 build date) did not even have a PCV system like the later ones did.

You should be able to build one of these 1.7s in an "early" state of tune for far less than $5,000. We did. No one sees any value in Djet parts for the 1.7 engines, especially the early ones. Take advantage of it now before the prices go up.

Alright I have to respond to the question above. Here again is my Video of my Single Weber 1.8 with the correct Cam and attention to the carb floats adjustments done by Tony at Translog GT to make it run right.


https://youtu.be/H4t0M2wrhu8

Doug
[/quote]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It has been proven they "work" but why not go the extra step for just few hundred dollars more to go twin carb which is proven to work better?

If the OP just wants a running car and doesn't mind a compromise the single carb can "work".

Will he be happy six month later wondering if it would be improved upon? Maybe, maybe not.

Replying to above but first repeating the original post in the beginning he wanted:

1st off the engine im going for in no way needs to
Be optimised for performance screwy.gif stirthepot.gif

What is the best combo for just cool reliable running In socal heat .

Im trying to stay clear of d jet poke.gif bootyshake.gif

So carbs or i like cb performance f.i kit but know little actually about it .

Now what I'm saying is single carb is least expensive, runs reliably, and is low maintenance easy to understand and work on. When Translog worked on the car I asked Tony to set it up for a two carb to be done later on. I'm happy with how it is and tuning a two carb is problematic if you don't know what you're doing[i]. I have a perfectly running car and don't want to touch it to screw it up.

True bumper sticker I just saw;

"I'd rather walk than drive a single carb'd Type IV"

......

If you go down Ljet path I'd look at upgrading the ignition. The 123ignition stuff is really tempting.

Forgot to mention My 2V Weber has an Electric Choke!

I have great respect for all the great info you gave and effort you make
But it has just convinced me that the djet has gotta go.
Too much to go wrong to fragile , to difficult to fiddle with for me personally.
And for all that trouble you get great driveablity
But not much reliability

Im looking for something proven and rock solid
Not porcelain fragile and tempermental

Credit to my current djet for lasting 40 years ,but
Obviously it was never intended to carry on this long

If you find a more reliable, affordable, bolt on solution than factory FI, let me know. Until then, I'll be driving my d-jet 914.

If after 40+ years no one has come up with it
Then maybe it doesn't exist.

But those germans are some crafty bastards