The best location for an electric water pump SBC V8 conversion, The best location for an electric water pump SBC V8 conversion Options

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

Have you pressure tested your system yet?

I have yet to perform a compression test oor leak down test.

[3liter914-6]

I have yet to perform a compression test oor leak down test.

He's saying pressure test the cooling system, it's a pump that you can use to check to see if the system is holding pressure--they're fairly effective at identifying most leaks in a cooling system. The vacuum tool that I showed you can also be used the same way, if you vacuum the system and the vacuum doesn't hold in the green zone then you've got a leak somewhere--potentially headgasket. I have both though, as the pressure tester is a little better at pinpointing leaks, but both will indicate an issue that requires attention.

You can also perform a combustion gas check on the coolant to see if you've got a leak from the combustion chamber.

Running hot at speed can be a lot of things, insufficient airflow, clogged or poorly sized radiator, trapped air, low coolant/insufficient water flow, tuning issues, head gasket, etc.

I'll say again, you should make sure that what you have is working properly before you throw more parts at things, and part of that is making sure the system is properly bled. The vacuum tools are amazing, and make coolant filling so easy and trouble free

[burton73]

You where saying decent temps of 180-200. You then said creeping up past 200.
Does it stop there or did you just stop. My V8 914 in 78 went to 200 a lot. I also owned a 85 corvette in 94 that the heat went past 220 and I just did not want to stop and I was in the desert and had 2 miles to go and I said screw it and overheated it and blew a head gasket. No water got in the Eng. One of my guys put a new head gasket in it and it was fine.
So how hot has your car got?

Bob B

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

I have yet to perform a compression test oor leak down test.

He's saying pressure test the cooling system, it's a pump that you can use to check to see if the system is holding pressure--they're fairly effective at identifying most leaks in a cooling system. The vacuum tool that I showed you can also be used the same way, if you vacuum the system and the vacuum doesn't hold in the green zone then you've got a leak somewhere--potentially headgasket. I have both though, as the pressure tester is a little better at pinpointing leaks, but both will indicate an issue that requires attention.

You can also perform a combustion gas check on the coolant to see if you've got a leak from the combustion chamber.

Running hot at speed can be a lot of things, insufficient airflow, clogged or poorly sized radiator, trapped air, low coolant/insufficient water flow, tuning issues, head gasket, etc.

I'll say again, you should make sure that what you have is working properly before you throw more parts at things, and part of that is making sure the system is properly bled. The vacuum tools are amazing, and make coolant filling so easy and trouble free

I rented a cooling system pressure tester from O'Reily's a while back. The kit did not have the correct adapter for a VW expansion tank so I had to fabricate my own. My son had to hold it in place while I pressurized the system. I used it mostly to purge air from the radiator petcock and not to test holding pressure.

Today; I took a ride to my local breakers yard and specifically looked for an expansion tank that was from a V8 car and that had the standard twist/lock pressure cap. Found one out of a Crown Vic/Grand Marquis that fit the bill. Took it home and made a temporary mount to test it. Right away. I noticed that where previously with the VW expansion tank, coolant would eventually flow out of the expansion tank and into overflow tank then would begin to fill up the overflow tank until it overflowed to the ground. This did not occur with the Ford unit. The overflow tank level did not have any discernible change in coolant level. Good sign, I hope.

Although I could not find anyone around here that rents out leak down testers, I will go to the FLAPS and rent out the pressure tester again.

If I understand this tool correctly; it will show me external leaks fairly immediately and will let me know of internal leaks by whether the pressure drops over X amount of time. Is this the correct way to diagnose with the pressure tester?

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

You where saying decent temps of 180-200. You then said creeping up past 200.
Does it stop there or did you just stop. My V8 914 in 78 went to 200 a lot. I also owned a 85 corvette in 94 that the heat went past 220 and I just did not want to stop and I was in the desert and had 2 miles to go and I said screw it and overheated it and blew a head gasket. No water got in the Eng. One of my guys put a new head gasket in it and it was fine.
So how hot has your car got?

Bob B

Hey Bob,

Quite the story with the Vette!

I do not think my car has ever overheated (with the engine in the 914 anyway... previous owner... possibly).

The gauge continues to read even after the engine is shut down. I have seen the temp creep up past 220 like this. I have also seen the coolant bubble (boil?) in the overflow tank once or twice... cannot recall what the temp was reading at the time but I am sure it was up there.

I am going to rent a pressure tester tomorrow and see what happens. I would like to rent a leak down tester but it seems that no one around here rents one!

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

I have yet to perform a compression test oor leak down test.

He's saying pressure test the cooling system, it's a pump that you can use to check to see if the system is holding pressure--they're fairly effective at identifying most leaks in a cooling system. The vacuum tool that I showed you can also be used the same way, if you vacuum the system and the vacuum doesn't hold in the green zone then you've got a leak somewhere--potentially headgasket. I have both though, as the pressure tester is a little better at pinpointing leaks, but both will indicate an issue that requires attention.

You can also perform a combustion gas check on the coolant to see if you've got a leak from the combustion chamber.

Running hot at speed can be a lot of things, insufficient airflow, clogged or poorly sized radiator, trapped air, low coolant/insufficient water flow, tuning issues, head gasket, etc.

I'll say again, you should make sure that what you have is working properly before you throw more parts at things, and part of that is making sure the system is properly bled. The vacuum tools are amazing, and make coolant filling so easy and trouble free

I rented a cooling system pressure tester from O'Reily's a while back. The kit did not have the correct adapter for a VW expansion tank so I had to fabricate my own. My son had to hold it in place while I pressurized the system. I used it mostly to purge air from the radiator petcock and not to test holding pressure.

Today; I took a ride to my local breakers yard and specifically looked for an expansion tank that was from a V8 car and that had the standard twist/lock pressure cap. Found one out of a Crown Vic/Grand Marquis that fit the bill. Took it home and made a temporary mount to test it. Right away. I noticed that where previously with the VW expansion tank, coolant would eventually flow out of the expansion tank and into overflow tank then would begin to fill up the overflow tank until it overflowed to the ground. This did not occur with the Ford unit. The overflow tank level did not have any discernible change in coolant level. Good sign, I hope.

Although I could not find anyone around here that rents out leak down testers, I will go to the FLAPS and rent out the pressure tester again.

If I understand this tool correctly; it will show me external leaks fairly immediately and will let me know of internal leaks by whether the pressure drops over X amount of time. Is this the correct way to diagnose with the pressure tester?

Update... I went and rented a pressure tester. When I got home, I removed the cap from the Crown Vic expansion tank and immediately noticed that the expansion was still full of coolant. I had never experienced that with the Passat expansion tank... that tank was always half empty... no matter how many times I filled it before driving... always.

I tested the 16 PSI cap and it checked out. Next, I pressurized the system to 16 PSI and even though it dropped a hair, it has been holding in the 15-16 PSI range on the gauge for over 10 minutes now. No external leaks and hopefully no internal leaks either. Good signs I think!

I read another test I can perform with the pressure tester is to remove all the spark plugs, pressurize the cooling system, then crank the engine to see if any coolant comes out of the spark plug holes.

Another is the exhaust gas tester for cooling systems.

It seems no one around here rents leak down tester or exhaust gas testers... it would suck to have to buy these things for one time testing.

Are the observations, tests and subsequent results performed so far enough to come to the determination that all is well with my cylinders and gaskets? I reckon it would be easy enough to perform the other test I mentioned with the pressure tester and removing the spark plugs... if I have to.

BTW... thanks for all your help!

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

More good news... I rented a block tester/combustion leak tester; followed the directions and pumped for more than 2 minutes (instructions say 2 minutes) and the test fluid did not turn yellow... no combustion gasses in the coolant! What a relief! I will try it one more time before I return the kit. The photos shown are after I had pumped for over 2 minutes.

Now I can proceed!

[Chris914n6]

The gauge continues to read even after the engine is shut down. I have seen the temp creep up past 220 like this. I have also seen the coolant bubble (boil?) in the overflow tank once or twice... cannot recall what the temp was reading at the time but I am sure it was up there.

Temp creep isn't uncommon, as the heat rises up to the temp sender. Coolant bubbling is common when there is air still trapped in the system.

Update... I went and rented a pressure tester. When I got home, I removed the cap from the Crown Vic expansion tank and immediately noticed that the expansion was still full of coolant. I had never experienced that with the Passat expansion tank... that tank was always half empty... no matter how many times I filled it before driving... always.

This doesn't surprise me. My engine in it's original car has a 9 quart cooling system. In my 914 it's 12 with the 20ft of 1 1/4" hose. Since the Passat tank was designed for a little 2.0 or 3.0 engine with 1-2ft hoses it's likely expanding beyond capacity.

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

The gauge continues to read even after the engine is shut down. I have seen the temp creep up past 220 like this. I have also seen the coolant bubble (boil?) in the overflow tank once or twice... cannot recall what the temp was reading at the time but I am sure it was up there.

Temp creep isn't uncommon, as the heat rises up to the temp sender. Coolant bubbling is common when there is air still trapped in the system.

Update... I went and rented a pressure tester. When I got home, I removed the cap from the Crown Vic expansion tank and immediately noticed that the expansion was still full of coolant. I had never experienced that with the Passat expansion tank... that tank was always half empty... no matter how many times I filled it before driving... always.

This doesn't surprise me. My engine in it's original car has a 9 quart cooling system. In my 914 it's 12 with the 20ft of 1 1/4" hose. Since the Passat tank was designed for a little 2.0 or 3.0 engine with 1-2ft hoses it's likely expanding beyond capacity.

I can completely understand this if it weren't for the examples of other 914 V8 owners that seem to do all right with a small expansion tank... at least I think they are expansion tanks... little tanks with pressure caps attached.

I now need to make a permanent mount for the tank and take it out for a drive. Reckon I should also remove the restriction washer inserted in the radiator inlet too.

[Chris914n6]

You talking about this? It's a filler / air catcher (swirl can). Connects to the overflow bottle. Mine is on the output side of the engine.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-431-1494534234.1.jpg)

Replaced it with this when I replaced hoses & radiator.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/c1.staticflickr.com-431-1494534235.2.jpg)

[dwillouby]

Finally getting to work on the car. Work travel is killing me.
Have to machine the Renegade pump housing to allow the Jegs unit to fit.
The step on the jegs pump is a little over .500. I machined the housing .600 and enlarged the dia about.030.
Made a mounting bracket and in process of wiring the relays. Will have it come on with Ign. and also tied to the fan switch on the radiator to run after engine is off untill temp comes down.
test running the pump pushes a lot of air out of the system and should help bleeding ?

David

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

Finally getting to work on the car. Work travel is killing me.
Have to machine the Renegade pump housing to allow the Jegs unit to fit.
The step on the jegs pump is a little over .500. I machined the housing .600 and enlarged the dia about.030.
Made a mounting bracket and in process of wiring the relays. Will have it come on with Ign. and also tied to the fan switch on the radiator to run after engine is off untill temp comes down.
test running the pump pushes a lot of air out of the system and should help bleeding ?

David

Hi David,

Sorry I haven't called... but I will!

Man I'm rooting for ya... I really hope this works!

Out of curiosity; once you start machining the housing to accept the Jegs pump and for whatever the reason, you decide later to go back to a mechanical setup; will the same housing still work at that point?

[dwillouby]

Sure , No problem.
I dont think there will be an issue as the bolts help to align it.
David

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

Hey all,

Happy Memorial Day!

I think the car has running much cooler since incorporating the expansion tank out of a v8 Crown Vic. I have taken it for a short drive or two (around 3 miles) with the new setup and it never got past 200. Mind you this is with no T-stat, no rad restrictor washer and straight water for cooling. Fan is configured to come on at 160.

Today; I decided to remove the hood and take it for another drive; this time around 5 miles. Bright sunny day and around 83 degrees out, mixed driving and reaching speeds up to 70 then mostly 40-50. I must say; driving around without a hood garners many looks and thumbs up!

I think removing the hood helped, at least a bit. After my 5 mile loop, the temp was around 190 when I pulled int the garage.

I guess I am having a hard time figuring out what is acceptable for a running temp. I mean if I can keep the temp at 200 or less, even with no t-stat and the fan coming on at 160; I would be happy. If at this time, my setup still has the potential of overheating, what should I do next? Four row radiator? Electric W/P? Both?

See the attached pictures... and back to removing the hood. Like I said; I think it did help in keeping the temp a bit lower but I do not want to drive around with no hood all the time! What about drilling large holes on the front trunk floor to allow more air to escape. Is that feasible? Will it take away from structure rigidity?

Also; if you take a closer look at the picture of the grille versus the length of the radiator, you will notice that the radiator is longer that the grill opening. It is completely sealed and ducted but I wonder if the opening should be larger. I think tomorrow, I will remove the bumper and take it for a drive and see if makes any difference. Stay tuned for more!

[Chris914n6]

Funny you should say Crown Vic. I worked on a Grand Marquis the other day and thought of you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's expansion tank is just a tank with 2 chambers. Feeds from the little hose attached to the top of the rad and returns thru the Tee on the lower return hose/eng intake.



190 is a fine temp for a SBC. The 10 degree drop could be air getting purged with the overnight cool down. You've got 3x the airflow I have and my engine runs at ideal temp so I doubt that's a problem.

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

Funny you should say Crown Vic. I worked on a Grand Marquis the other day and thought of you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's expansion tank is just a tank with 2 chambers. Feeds from the little hose attached to the top of the rad and returns thru the Tee on the lower return hose/eng intake.


190 is a fine temp for a SBC. The 10 degree drop could be air getting purged with the overnight cool down. You've got 3x the airflow I have and my engine runs at ideal temp so I doubt that's a problem.

Lol! Mine looks very much like the one you show except it has the older style twist pressure cap.

I have 3x the airflow because I removed the hood or even with the hood installed? You do not think that drilling large holes in the floor will help with cooling? What type of rad do you have... a 4 core? How about your W/P? Electric or mechanical. Why does your run so cool?

[Chris914n6]

I have 3x the airflow because I removed the hood or even with the hood installed?

hood installed.

How about your W/P? Electric or mechanical.

Stock mechanical.

What type of rad do you have... a 4 core?

VW Corrado with 2 Spal fans to replicate the 2 speed stock fan, back when I first did the conv in 2001. Toyota Celica with stock Celica fans now. I'd say 2 core single pass.

Why does your run so cool?

Not a SBC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

You do not think that drilling large holes in the floor will help with cooling?

That's it. 2 ugly floor holes from the AC, 5 plugs removed, and 2 holes with deflectors from the horn grilles. The air only expands 20% after heated, NOT 200% as is being sold.

Fun fact. My 180F thermostat starts to open at 180F and reaches full open (~3/8") at 203F. At 203F low speed fan is triggered, at 212F high speed fan is triggered. High speed is rarely triggered but in slow traffic. All controlled by the stock ECU.

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

I have 3x the airflow because I removed the hood or even with the hood installed?

hood installed.

How about your W/P? Electric or mechanical.

Stock mechanical.

What type of rad do you have... a 4 core?

VW Corrado with 2 Spal fans to replicate the 2 speed stock fan, back when I first did the conv in 2001. Toyota Celica with stock Celica fans now. I'd say 2 core single pass.

Why does your run so cool?

Not a SBC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

You do not think that drilling large holes in the floor will help with cooling?

That's it. 2 ugly floor holes from the AC, 5 plugs removed, and 2 holes with deflectors from the horn grilles. The air only expands 20% after heated, NOT 200% as is being sold.

Fun fact. My 180F thermostat starts to open at 180F and reaches full open (~3/8") at 203F. At 203F low speed fan is triggered, at 212F high speed fan is triggered. High speed is rarely triggered but in slow traffic. All controlled by the stock ECU.

Wow... hardly holey at all!

I wonder; I notice that your rad is angled back versus mine being angled forward. Does that make a difference in air flow? Coolant flow?

[Andyrew]

It makes sense in his case since the airflow needs to go down. Yours should be fine as is.


All signs on your setup point to the fact that it should work.

[BRAVE_HELIOS]

It was such a nice day; I decided to remove my bumper (as if I didn't have anything better to do!).

I have not taken it out for a drive yet to test cooling but I did want to show you all a a couple of things like the opening in the bulkhead and the rather large (for the Chalon bumper) ducting from the bumper to the bulkhead. Remember... I got that sucker so sealed that the fan will suck in a license plate to the grille!

Do you think the bulkhead opening is large enough? I can probably remove those two rubber plugs to add a bit more to the air flow. What about the grille opening on the bumper... it is around 21 inch by 5 inch. Is it a sufficient size for the cooling?