1970-72 914-6/914-4 Seatbelt Holster, O&H Info for the CW Types Options

[SirAndy]

I think a count of cars with holes and those without is in order before we can make a judgement

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
A count as well as a ordered list of VINs.

This is the best approach by far since it will reveal if there is a pattern to the installation of the holders.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

[Tom_T]

Some notes for those actually preparing their 70-72 914s for Parade in Spokane....

For those of you who are the 10-20% who are serious Concours competitors & reading this mess, the info. from my nationally rated judge is what it is, & trying to explain at Parade why you should not have a points deduction because of no screw holes or due to a 914world survey of 914s today is unlikely to change their mind.

Whether right or wrong - that is the position of the judges, that they should have the holster/holder - so you're best served to present your 70-72 914-6 or /4 with it, or have the possibility or probability that you'll be gigged - regardless of what the Master Debaters on here are saying.

Remember that at Parade, the judges work as a team, & confer with each other on the details of all judged areas (in Zone 8 & it's Regions, we each take an area - interior or whatever, but cannot confer with each other) - so if one knows about this item or any other originality issue, then they will all know - & you will be scored accordingly.

While the chart of which cars have the holes &/or holster may be interesting to those of you with that era 914, it is not one of the means of challenge accepted by PCA rules, when a Model Specialist/Judge determines that something should or should not be on a particular car/era - only Porsche documentation works.

Glen - Thanx for the other input, but to be clear - I never said that the screws could be put thru steel longs without the holes - that was Andy misunderstanding or misreading the text, but I did say that they could have dimpled the steel if the installer screwed them through the carpet after the fact.

And yes, I'm sure that McMark can identify all sort of holes with his experience. I saw & highlighted what looked to me like the screw dimples on Andy's longs in that other thread on this now inane topic.

Normally, I would have no problem naming my sources, but this thread is the perfect example of why I won't in this case (in addition being asked by my source not to do so), nor will I in the future - in order to not subject some other innocent party to this sort of internet bashing fest.

However - I just have to giggle at all this nonsense, because now the behavior on here by a few of you has now elevated this issue & one part to the attention of a number of other judges who are looking at this thread! Ergo, my warning above to the "Real CWs" that I doubt that it won't be a topic at the upcoming Parade in Spokane!

This inane attempt by a couple of people to try to discredit me personally, on 3rd party judging & originality info which I was relaying in good faith to help my fellow CW members on here - has also given all of us a bad reputation in the eyes of these judges/experts, as noted in the quote below!

Here's what my "deepthroat" source had to say about all of this, as well as to have picked out another originality detail on the seat bolts, which someone may care about too. The quotations which I've posted from this 914 expert should tell even a casual observer that they know 914s well!

Here are the latest further commentary & clarifications from my 914 expert:

"wow those guys are nuts. The one picture you show has the wrong bolts (they should be hex not allen) screwing in the seat rack, but the seat belt holster issue is what it is, factory parts in the factory parts book, one required, all usa cars model year 70 to model year 72 through 12/31/71. Jan 72 went to retractible belts. Who knows maybe on the assembly line they forgot a few cars, and the screws are certainly short enough that they would not have pierced thick loop carpet offered on the 70 -72 fours with appearance group and the 71-72 sixes without a lot of help and drilling like the guys said. Obviously installed after the carpet was installed, no one is going to drill into the carpet at the factory as it would cause carpet damage, so either predrilled or forgotten"

Do you folks really want to be known in the Concours community as "nuts"!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Good Luck to the CWs! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Tom_T]

In case some folks who really care about Concours prep, judging, etc. issues in general or for this particular item &/or any other originality issues ....

.... but are confused, put-off or intimidated by the silliness going on here ....

I've transferred the relevant info. on the seatbelt holder/holster/retaining bar item & on judging/CdE's to the post in 914club's Concours Forum linked below:

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?show...p;#entry1390471

And you can be sure that the Admins there will eliminate any OT or nasty posts on there, so you can freely ask questions.

I'll still monitor this topic if anyone has a serious post, & I've also asked another member who both actually owns an early 70-72 914 subject to this part's inclusion, & who is also experienced with entering CdE's where originality is judged - to monitor it to answer any specific questions which members may have (since I'm a 73 2L owner).

While a polite & respectful debate on how many cars had these, screw holes or not, etc., whether you believe it or not may be appropriate at the Garage Forum topic on this item ....

This type of nasty, combative, harassing & conjecture posts here is nothing but inappropriate, rude, & a huge disservice to the CW members on here trying to prepare their cars for best results at the Spokane Parade next month, &/or any other originality judged CdEs! Frankly, it's nothing more than personal attacks & attempted cyber-bullying by certain people with over inflated egos.

However, when the website's owner & other Admins are the perpetrators of this type of bad netiquette - there is little chance that it will ever stop on here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

In short - the Concours judges just do NOT care what these "Master Debaters" posting on here think or feel or opine - rather, they will judge this & everything else by what are THEIR originality & preparation standards for the make/model/era car, & per their experts on same there/on-call - regardless of anything to the contrary posted here!

And if I happen get banned for standing up for correct info on how this & other originality issues are judged & challenged, as well as myself & calling out the perpetrators - then it only speaks to their integrity or lack thereof - & you can still reach me at 914club! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway - Best of Luck to Everyone with the Desire to Compete at Parade etc. CdEs! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Pat Garvey]

Some notes for those actually preparing their 70-72 914s for Parade in Spokane....

For those of you who are the 10-20% who are serious Concours competitors & reading this mess, the info. from my nationally rated judge is what it is, & trying to explain at Parade why you should not have a points deduction because of no screw holes or due to a 914world survey of 914s today is unlikely to change their mind.

Whether right or wrong - that is the position of the judges, that they should have the holster/holder - so you're best served to present your 70-72 914-6 or /4 with it, or have the possibility or probability that you'll be gigged - regardless of what the Master Debaters on here are saying.

Remember that at Parade, the judges work as a team, & confer with each other on the details of all judged areas (in Zone 8 & it's Regions, we each take an area - interior or whatever, but cannot confer with each other) - so if one knows about this item or any other originality issue, then they will all know - & you will be scored accordingly.

While the chart of which cars have the holes &/or holster may be interesting to those of you with that era 914, it is not one of the means of challenge accepted by PCA rules, when a Model Specialist/Judge determines that something should or should not be on a particular car/era - only Porsche documentation works.

Glen - Thanx for the other input, but to be clear - I never said that the screws could be put thru steel longs without the holes - that was Andy misunderstanding or misreading the text, but I did say that they could have dimpled the steel if the installer screwed them through the carpet after the fact.

And yes, I'm sure that McMark can identify all sort of holes with his experience. I saw & highlighted what looked to me like the screw dimples on Andy's longs in that other thread on this now inane topic.

Normally, I would have no problem naming my sources, but this thread is the perfect example of why I won't in this case (in addition being asked by my source not to do so), nor will I in the future - in order to not subject some other innocent party to this sort of internet bashing fest.

However - I just have to giggle at all this nonsense, because now the behavior on here by a few of you has now elevated this issue & one part to the attention of a number of other judges who are looking at this thread! Ergo, my warning above to the "Real CWs" that I doubt that it won't be a topic at the upcoming Parade in Spokane!

This inane attempt by a couple of people to try to discredit me personally, on 3rd party judging & originality info which I was relaying in good faith to help my fellow CW members on here - has also given all of us a bad reputation in the eyes of these judges/experts, as noted in the quote below!

Here's what my "deepthroat" source had to say about all of this, as well as to have picked out another originality detail on the seat bolts, which someone may care about too. The quotations which I've posted from this 914 expert should tell even a casual observer that they know 914s well!

Here are the latest further commentary & clarifications from my 914 expert:

"wow those guys are nuts. The one picture you show has the wrong bolts (they should be hex not allen) screwing in the seat rack, but the seat belt holster issue is what it is, factory parts in the factory parts book, one required, all usa cars model year 70 to model year 72 through 12/31/71. Jan 72 went to retractible belts. Who knows maybe on the assembly line they forgot a few cars, and the screws are certainly short enough that they would not have pierced thick loop carpet offered on the 70 -72 fours with appearance group and the 71-72 sixes without a lot of help and drilling like the guys said. Obviously installed after the carpet was installed, no one is going to drill into the carpet at the factory as it would cause carpet damage, so either predrilled or forgotten"

Do you folks really want to be known in the Concours community as "nuts"!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Good Luck to the CWs! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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WOW!!!!!! I am so happy that I stayed away from this group. Tom, you will take a beating from Das Fuhrer for anything, as I'm certain you now realize. I WOULD say that you should include only a small portion of the '72 models for these parts, as the retractable belts did away with them. Quite frankly Andy and his cronies, with their highly bastardized "914"s" should not even approach originality people with their supposed "knowledge". Good luck Tom. Pat

[Tom_T]

WOW!!!!!! I am so happy that I stayed away from this group. Tom, you will take a beating from Das Fuhrer for anything, as I'm certain you now realize. I WOULD say that you should include only a small portion of the '72 models for these parts, as the retractable belts did away with them. Quite frankly Andy and his cronies, with their highly bastardized "914"s" should not even approach originality people with their supposed "knowledge". Good luck Tom. Pat

Hi Pat,

I think that my expert agreed with you about the 72's, since it was noted as production up to 12/31/71, then thereafter they went with the retractable belts (so the holder was no longer needed) - or somethings to that effect anyway.

I think your 72 may be after the change IIRC.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[SirAndy]

WOW!!!!!! I am so happy that I stayed away from this group. Tom, you will take a beating from Das Fuhrer for anything, as I'm certain you now realize. I WOULD say that you should include only a small portion of the '72 models for these parts, as the retractable belts did away with them. Quite frankly Andy and his cronies, with their highly bastardized "914"s" should not even approach originality people with their supposed "knowledge". Good luck Tom. Pat

Tom's claim that the holders were factory installed with holes drilled in the longs by the factory simply does not hold up to the facts.

And calling me names does not change the facts.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[SirAndy]

There's really only 3 possibilities:

1 - The holders were factory installed and the mounting holes were drilled by the factory
If that was the case there really shouldn't be any cars without the holes and the holes should be in the same exact place and of similar quality.
Yet there is a significant amount of early cars without the holes drilled and on those who have the holes drilled, the placement varies and many appear to have been drilled by hand without the use of a template.

2 - The holders were dealer/owner installed and the mounting was up to the installer
This would explain the differences in the hole placements, missing holes and variations in the quality of the install.

3 - The holders were factory installed but no holes were drilled, the mounting screws were only screwed into the carpet
While this seems somewhat unlikely because it results in a rather floppy mounting of the holders, this could also explain the differences in the hole placements, missing holes and variations in the quality of the install because that would mean that the holes were drilled after delivery by either the dealer or the new owner to better secure the holder.


As pointed out by Glenn, compiling a list of VIN numbers in chronological order indicating whether or not a car has the holes drilled (NOTE: Not if they currently have a holder or not but if they have holes drilled in the long!) would help to establish any sort of pattern to the distribution of cars with/without holes.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[gms]

I am hijacking this thread to get people to shows us what you 1970-71 car has
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=309960

[Tom_T]

Every time you think you have an absolute in the production of Porsches (1949-1980s) you will find an exception. My personal theory is that the cars without holes are outliers this is why I think a count of cars with holes and those without is in order before we can make a judgement

Hey Glenn,

I'd suggest that you take your idea of a list over to the Garage Forum for a Poll - where it will get the wider audience than just the CWs here - & then report back the end key results later on this thread.

Nevertheless, this is not a "judgement" issue for us to decide - as you say above - since for the Concours events where originality is judged - that power lies [u]solely within the PCA, AACA, CCCA, etc. judges & with the 914/make/model experts whom THEY use.[/u] Some folks here seem to have a problem accepting that fact, but that doesn't change it.

If someone wants to change the judging standards on this item or anything else on originality with any of them, then they'd have to take whatever factual evidence & official Porsche documentation to the contrary to each of those organizations, petition them to reconsider it, & in that process they would probably come up against my judge/914 expert in the process, & would need to prove it out unequivocally against them &/or any other 914 experts.

However, I repeat for those entering Parade in just a few weeks, that this may or probably will be a points deduction item - Fair Warning Given - since this is apparently an accepted originality point my judge/resto expert's noted on early 914s up to 12/31/71 end date, & it's also shown as up to 12/71 on 914-6/4/1,7 ("<72" & "-72" in the PET & other Porsche factory Shop & Parts Manuals means "up to 72 MY" BTW) - as is also shown in your parts pic below (as well as at the 2 other pics of Porsche 914 Parts Manuals for the models).

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads/post-1785-1494559001.jpg)

So far in addition to my judge/914 expert, Paul & the O&H Forum's Moderator Pat have all weighed in in support of the fact that - since this is the judging standard & apparently occurred on most or all cars (whether on the spot or in the glovebox/etc. or "missed") - that it could be a points deduction at Parade &/or at other Concours.

As several of them have said - & you too Glen - it's probably not a dealer item, since IMHO it is highly unlikely that dealers would expend 1-1.5+ hours of labor per car to remove & replace the driver's seat, carpet rail & carpet on the longitudinal, then to drill the 4-holes, the re-adhesive & replace the carpet, rail & then screw in the 4 tiny screws on the holster, then replace the seat. And where is the cost efficiency for VW-Porsche to have to produce & send out 1000s of drilling templates to all of the dealers, instead of just a few at the Karmann Plant!?

It's far more logical IMHO that they just missed some at the factory, & then just installed them screwed into the carpet alone as at least one owner posted (i.e.: NOT into the steel longitudinal at all, for those not able to follow), or stuck them in the car's glovebox/center box, or "forgot" them - as you Glen & the others have said here.

Note that my judge/expert, Paul, Pat & myself are all in our 60's & have been around 914s since the early days when they first came out in Fall 1969, & those other than I have been around PCA & other Concours with originality judged - since when all PCA events covered originality (I'm the late comer to judging at PCA Concours).

They have all suggested that the holes were drilled at the factory - or supposed to have been drilled & it installed there, but that some may have been missed - as have you Glen - so there are obviously more than "only 3 possibilities" in any case.

Any contrary opinions herein by others really will NOT matter when you get in front of the judging team at the Spokane Parade in a few weeks (&/or at any other originality based Concours) - if they choose to score on this holster item (or any others).

In the end - it's each owner's choice. Ignore the expert's info. (not my info) on this seatbelt holster/holder, & my judging/challenge process info & warnings here, at your own peril - & maybe, just maybe, the judges won't look for or deduct for this item .... or maybe they will ... it's their choice!

But if you do chose to follow the contrary advice of others here, & you do lose points - then please DO make sure to come back & report it here, & take it out on the others spouting off here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

And if you luck out & don't get gigged for not having it - or any other originality item - then count yourself lucky - but it still is not conclusive proof that it won't be scored in the next PCA Parade, AACA, CCCA, etc. Concours originality event(s). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Time to get busy! .... or busier! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/FERG.gif)

FYI -

PCA Parade Rules:

Rules Links Page:
https://www.pca.org/resource-category/parad...mpetition-rules

.

Spokane Parade Registration:

http://parade2017.pca.org/registration.html

... for Concours:
http://parade2017.pca.org/Concours.html

... for Tech Quiz:
http://parade2017.pca.org/techquiz.html

.

Most of all - Have Fun There! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Tom_T]

I am hijacking this thread to get people to shows us what you 1970-71 car has
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=309960

Hey Glenn, I was typing when you posted this link. Good start.

However, again - this list will not affect nor influence nor change the judging standards at the Concours where originality is judged on this item - such as at the upcoming Spokane Parade, if the judging team there is looking for them to be on the early 914s - as my judge/914 expert has said.

PS - It's not a hijack, since I suggested it above anyway! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[wndsnd]

Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

[mepstein]

Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

And Fuch the people who are disparaging Sir Andy. If you don't like it here - leave.

[yerpants]

I am sure that Mr. _T (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , who is a very well respected judge in his own right from what I hear, has got enough backing here to make this a concrete statement. He's probably owned many fine examples of early 914s that would lend enough weight on their own.

[Tom_T]

Tom,

I know this is not helpful, but.

Fuch all you concours types..... If you are making your judgements on a dealer kit, vs. original car data, you are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

Geez Louise people! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

It is NOT a "dealer kit" - but a factory part which came with the seatbelts, as can be clearly seen from the pix of the NOS seatbelt kit from another member (again - NOT me nor mine!) - which thePCA judges/914 experts - yet again NOT me - have decided was factory installed, or should have been.

The 914 PET Factory Parts Manual lists the Accessories which dealers would sell under section "Main Group 0 Accessories" of the official Porsche 914 PET Parts Manual (including replacement bits for tool kits, etc.), whereas the factory fitment parts are in the respective area within the rest of the other 1-9 "Main Group" sections.

This holster/holder/retaining bar is listed in "Main Group 8 Body" under subsection "812 Seatbelts" on its pg. 002 (& not in section "0 Accessories"), & within the parts list area for the early non-retractable seatbelts up through 12/71 mfgr - & NOT within the section of various parts for the later retractable seatbelts, as Andy initially tried to claim about these being for late belts at first, in prior posts!

Look in your own 914 PET parts manual on the above noted page, for p/n: 914-803-141-10 & in the line in which this item is listed, it states 1 only (not 2 at both sides), & that it applies to 914-6/4, & it's under the -71 section of seatbelt parts - Just as my judge/914 expert said!

I believe that in the older 1970-72 era factory Manuals they used to have a diagram showing the non-retractable belts (the later 914 PET editions only have a diagram for the later retractable belts now), which early editions would probably show the holster/holder/retainer bar in the diagram, along with the early non-retractable seatbelts, as they were listed in "Section 8 Body" in older versions of the PET (& not in section "0") - before they went NLA or were superseded by the later retractable belts after 12/31/71 production (i.e.: the changeover to retractable belts was at the 2nd half of the 72 MY, as Pat G. confirmed above)..

The doubters just need to go ask a Parade Judge or content expert themselves!

Certainly from Glen's poll linked at the above post, it would seem that those 914s without them or the drilled holes are the outliers in far less numbers.

And NO yerpants, I've never owned a 70-72 914, but had many friends with them in the early days. That is why I say that I'm relaying info from another expert/judge, & rely on original owners of the 70-72 914s like Paul (70) & Pat (72).

But Thanx for the support! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Tom_T]

And Fuch the people who are disparaging Sir Andy. If you don't like it here - leave.

And you Mark, Andy, & everyone else who are slamming people for information which we have relayed on here in good faith - either from a reliable source &/or personally, really need to stop that BS, then their is no need to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sheeplove.gif) anybody!

Andy has been far from polite & respectful to a bunch of us who have been around 914s far longer than he or you have, & is willing to disparage a person he doesn't even know! Therefore, he got called on it by me, & eventually by others.

The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

This only serves to confuse those out there trying to prepare for Spokane next month, & is a big disservice to the members on here.

Instead, Andy is so dead set on trying to make it "my information" & trying to discredit me personally, & deny any other possibilities that he himself might be wrong! That is just small minded.

So NO - I don't think that any of us will leave, just cuz you want us to not stand up for ourselves, & just accept his highness as the sole & final expert, free to dole out insults to others at will! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Bub-bye! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)
T
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[SirAndy]

The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

I never mentioned concours once in any of my posts.

My posts are about facts and have nothing to do with concours, especially when those concours people seem to be unwilling to look at facts when they are presented to them.

Small minded indeed, just not on my side ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Tom_T]

The really sad part about this egofest, is that Andy cannot even concede that - IF this is the way the judges at Parade Concours will look at this item - then those entering should plan to meet those judges' criteria.

I never mentioned concours once in any of my posts.

My posts are about facts and have nothing to do with concours, especially when those concours people seem to be unwilling to look at facts when they are presented to them.

Small minded indeed, just not on my side ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

The point is Andy, that you SHOULD mention & concede the point in regards to having them for Concours judging, since it is an accepted standard per the officials - instead of confusing the issue for those new to concours prep reading here.

My first post says that this topic is placed here in O&H for Concours purposes - as well as to avoid this very type of personal attacks barrage from you & your buddies at the general Garage discussion on this item, as well as at many others herein Andy. I think you know that, & that I asked many times for you not to confuse the issue for those prepping for Concours, & instead you followed/trolled me over to O&H here, in order to continue your arguments & put-downs from the other thread in the Garage on this item, just to press your perceived superiority over me of all things 914.

There is a big difference between stating that you disagree with a particular point or position which the concours judging officials & bodies have taken & leaving it at that - DULY NOTED - & doing a barrage of curt & nasty posts insisting that I - not the the outside Concours expert's info - is wrong, cannot be, & that it should just be ignored by everyone on here because YOU think it was a dealer option/accessory.

And you're just splitting hairs & being disingenuous to state that you never mentioned Concours, while multiple posting on here your argumentative circumstantial "facts," in a misguided attack to try to discredit me personally - rather than at least being honest enough to keep it as: "you disagree with the other outside expert's opinion." Again, duly noted, & noted, & noted - you disagree, everyone gets that you disagree - but that alone doesn't make it so.

Furthermore, I take my expert/judge's opinion on this being a standard factory part over yours, McMark's or any other naysayers on here as correct - as should any serious concours or originality restorer. This is more than a "someone says" opinion, as you have alleged in one of your attacks above on me, but from an expert who trumps you in 914 expertise!

You continue to insist that only your opinions & limited options or "possibilities" are the only ones which could possibly be true & considered, despite & avoiding all other factual documentation & evidence to the contrary.

Moreover, I did explain the proper & accepted ways that this & any & all originality items can be documented & challenged at Concours &/or to change the judging originality standards/criteria with the sponsoring organizations - but that procedure does not include screw hole evidence, polls/lists of 914s with/without, etc. now some almost 50 years later after their manufacture.

I even invited folks who find anything in accepted official Porsche documentation to the contrary to post it here - including you.

As for whether they were in fact a factory part & not a dealer add-on ....

The supporting documented facts are:

1.) Actual official Porsche Documentation/manuals list it as a factory part:

1a.) The part is listed in the PET section #8 & several other Porsche parts manuals as a factory part - NOT a dealer accessory in section #0, &

1b.) Therein that only one (1) is included (not 2, with 1 on both sides - the 2nd would be an add-on item), &

1c.) Therein that they are for 914-6/4 up to `71 or 12/71 (-71 or up to 12/71) - which includes 1st half of the 72 MY.

1d.) You yourself Andy, Glen & others have posted screenshots of these parts manuals clearing showing the above 1a-1c facts in support of they being a factory part, & countervening your own position that they were dealer options.

2.) The Holster/Holder/Retainer Bar part is NOT listed in the PET within the "Main Group 0 Accessories" section - where the Dealer sold add-on items are listed.

3.) The NOS seatbelt kit clearly included the holster within the same package as the seatbelt securing bolts - not as a separate item outside of the seatbelt parts (at Mike Fitton's ad for an NOS set of early non-retractable seatbelts).

The additional circumstantial support for this are:

4.) Glen's survey in the Garage Forum at his link provided in his post #28 above, so far shows far more 914-6/4s of the era with the part, (or screw holes) - than those lacking it - making the standard factory inclusion of the part(s) much more likely, with those missing them being factory errors or omissions.

5.) Members have posted that their cars from that era had them only screwed into the carpet, supporting that the later screwed holes during assembly may have been missed, forgotten or omitted at the factory on certain cars - similar to Glen's findings at #4 above. Stuff got missed, sloppily or misapplied or mis-installed, etc. at Karmann, Stuttgart & all other auto factories all of the time!

> A side note on evidence that this type of factory omission did indeed happen - i.e.: that this type of factory omission of some cars not having some needed mounting holes & not being done at the factory on all cars - is that my 73 & several other original owner 73's with original rear panels had no punched holes in them for the engine designation badge (i.e.: they only had the 2 early style prepunched holes for the 914 badge). Of this I am 1000% sure. So certainly the 4 drilled holes for this seatbelt holster also could have been missed too on some cars & to say that errors/omissions never occurred at the factory is just unsupportable.

6.) At almost 50 years old now - & with rust prone & hard driven sports cars, many of which could have had accidents, with one or more restorations in that almost half a century - it's hard to say that any car didn't have some sheet metal replacements, or the holes filling in (if there), etc. over that time - making it nearly impossible for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. owner to know it's original state for certain.

> For example - I recall from pix which you posted quite a while back on your original 914-6 body/shell, that it had both extensive accident & rust damage when you got it. So who is to say that the long pic which McMark posted is actually original sheet metal? Section "Main Group 8 Body" of the official Porsche Factory Repair Manual shows pix of how various sections can be cut & replaced with minimal disruption & minimal evidence after-the-fact, because they stay at or close to the factory seams/joints for the most part.

While your 914-6 may indeed still be original body steel & lack the holes, that alone is not conclusive evidence that they should have been done at the factory, & that it did or should have had the seatbelt holder on it when the original owner bought it new. And is is certainly not conclusive evidence that they are dealer added options. That just is NOT a fact, as you erroneously allege.

7.) This item has been cited as an original factory part on all 914-6/4 cars during the 1970-72 MY up to 12/31/71, as consistent with the Porsche documentation noted above in #1 - as per my one buddy judge/resto/expert on 914s - & since then several more have old timer experts spoken up on here & to me privately - ALL of whom are far more reliable sources on originality & experienced with 914s since their introduction - than are you/McMark/Epstein/etc. as relative newcomers.

So I'm sorry, but your alleged "facts" are not facts, nor does your opinion overrule those true experts & the other documented proof above.

Missing screw holes almost 50 years later on a few 914s from that era just area not supportable nor conclusive "facts" - since they could have been simple factory assembly line errors or omissions.

So far your only alleged "facts" that this item is a dealer add-on option or accessory are:

A.) Your 914-6 & 914/4 has no holder nor screw holes in their longitudinals, &

B.) A small number of other subject 70-72 914-6/4s also don't have the holders, or screw holes in their longitudinals either, according to some other owners on here.

C.) You claimed that since it is called "Retaining Bar" in a questionable German-to-English translation within the PET, that it somehow "proves" it wasn't a factory part - but by what logic is that?

> Whereas, it's just possible that it started in concept as a "bar" but ended up instead being a plastic holder/holster, or that the translation is what they used even if it always was the plastic pocket holder/holster. Either way or if neither - the part's name has absolutely no bearing on whether it's a factory part or a dealer add-on. I also pointed out earlier in here that they also call the rubber gasket which sits under the side mirrors on the door as a: "Desk Pad" - so how the heck is a desk pad a proper English language usage or translation for a body gasket or seal!?

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

E.) You, Glen & others have posted screen shots of Porsche Parts Manuals/Listings which in fact support that they ARE indeed factory parts, & NOT dealer add-ons - minus Two!

I think that any objective, logical & reasonable person would judge that the alleged "facts" of yours above are pretty thin & only circumstantial - while the documented facts & other supporting circumstantial evidence, & outside expert opinions which I summarized above so far weigh far more heavily that they are in fact factory parts & NOT dealer add-ons.

If you really want to get at the facts to support an argument to the contrary, then use your German contacts & family to get some actual official Porsche documentation, letters, diagrams, older parts manuals, etc. to support your counter-claim that they were a dealer installed option. You said that I needed documents, which I've provided, but you yourself have provided zero documentation to the contrary, but rather have provided documentation that the were indeed factory installed parts (or should have been). So go get a dealer TSB or Instruction sheet which shows them directed to install these seatbelt holders at the dealership prior to delivery, & then you have supportable true facts!

Those are acceptable "facts" to both the true 914 experts, Concours organizations, etc. needed to change the Concours judging originality criteria. You have to provide acceptable documentation to the contrary, which categorically offsets the PET/Manuals & Parts packages, etc. noted above.

Otherwise, it's like trying to talk yourself out of a radar speeding ticket by saying to the judge in court, that both you & your buddy in the passenger seat were watching the speedometer & "swear" that you never sped - instead of providing documentation that the officer never properly tuned his radar gun - which AFAIK is the ONLY acceptable proof to get one out of a radar speeding ticket in CA & probably in most other states too. That won't fly there, nor will your spurious claims fly with the originality experts & organizations. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I am only taking my time here to provide this info from the start - & to continue to answer your ongoing inane & spurious contentions to have some "facts" - so that others with a 70-72 (up to 12/31/71) 914-6 or /4 will not be mislead by your posts, while they are trying to properly restore &/or prepare their cars for Concours or whatever else.

However - IF & when you find actual documentation on this subject for or against it being a factory part expected to be on the 70-72 up to 12/31/71 914-6/4s - then please do post it here! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

So please do us all a favor & stop OT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif) - & just post when you have some actual documentation supporting your contention that these were dealer add-ons.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[SirAndy]

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

If you had taken the time to actual read my post (from 2009) you would have noted that the later retractable seat belts do have a "retaining bar" which guides the seatbelts into the retractor.
It's a metal bar that slides over the seatbelts and bolts behind the retractor.

So much for the all knowing concours judge ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Tom_T]

D.) You initially & erroneously claimed that they were only for the later 73-76 914s with the retractable seatbelts - which obviously would have absolutely no need for them, nor could they be used, since the retraction mechanism will just pull the belt out of the holder - minus One!

If you had taken the time to actual read my post (from 2009) you would have noted that the later retractable seat belts do have a "retaining bar" which guides the seatbelts into the retractor.
It's a metal bar that slides over the seatbelts and bolts behind the retractor.

So much for the all knowing concours judge ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

While you're correct Andy that there is either a guide bar or plate sort of piece on the retractable belt - it is in fact NOT a separate part & ALWAYS already assembled with the entire belt assembly - & NEVER separately - NOR does it have a separate part number called out for it in PET section 812's diagram nor parts list, where it sits between the two (2) parts labeled #7 in the 812 diagram for the parts list.

In 74> MYs it was changed from the earlier guide plate, to a tubular bar type piece with a completely different plastic cover for it (cover called out as #2 & shown in the 812 diagram). So it wasn't originally a bar either.

It also sits way at the top of the back wall with the retractor mechanism - & NOT down below at the longitudenal - as does the holder part being discussed here.

It is neither called out, nor given a separate part number, nor even referred to a "retainer bar" as you claimed in that 2009 post - which I did read.

You see, I DO know about all of this, because it IS an item which I have researched for my own 73 914-2.0's resto, & which early seatbelt assembly is exceedingly hard to find in NOS parts with the flat guide plate type using the smaller cover, as shown in the 812 diagram - & as per my OE ones on my car.

So not only are you still "Minus One & Two" for this early seatbelt holder part - but add "Minus 3" for the 73> part as well! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult: "So much for the all knowing concours judge ..." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

.... or just continue to try to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ar15.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fighting19.gif) me!!??

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) I think it's just better if we "play nice" on here - don't you?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[SirAndy]

Do you want to be a "man" & retract your ill attempted insult

This may surprise you but i'm completely comfortable with my sexuality ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)