Engine first start attempt., Couple vacuum leaks, Finally adustable idle. Options

[Olympic 914]

Engine first start, Fail.

Yesterday I made the first attempt at starting the engine since rebuild. I had put two gallons of 93 octane gas into the tank and the pump runs as it should when turning the key. I had a timer ready to perform the 20 minute cam break in.
I was arrogant enough to believe that the engine would simply start when I finally tried it. WRONG.
It caught for a few moments then died. And subsequent attempts gave no better of a response.
I had turned the engine over with the coil disconnected to build up oil pressure before attempting the start. And thought I may have run the battery down some. Checking it showed 12.56v resting and 11.44 while cranking. I connected a big boat battery with jumper cables but still no start. It turns over and fires a couple times giving of puffs of exhaust, but does not catch and keep running.
Pulled a FI hose and checked that I am getting gas, also pulled two plugs and they are wet with gas. I thought I may have flooded it so I put the battery charger on it and put it back in the garage.
This morning I tried it again and the result was the same. It fires a couple times then just cranks.
Everything is new.
Cap and rotor, points condenser plug wires etc. injectors rebuilt buy Witchhunters , static timed when I put in the distributor. All new vacuum hoses, rebuilt MPS (set to 037 specs) ECU is an unknown but it worked when ran last (in ’89) all the wiring was carefully checked when installed
Engine build is as follows.
EA 1.7 engine built into a 2056
Using the djet FI with 2.0 parts, intake runners, throttle body, air cleaner, etc.
HAM heads ported to RS+ and modified for the 2.0 runners
Raby 9590 cam

Guess I will start with rechecking the timing and go from there.

[cwpeden]

Are you getting spark?

[mepstein]

Are you getting spark?

And check that your getting fuel.
Those are the first two things to check.

[pgollender]

Double check the cylinder head temp sensor and circuit. if you have an open circuit or partial break it will fail to start. 40+ year-old wiring is pretty brittle. Make sure your harness grounds are grounded well too. You can test the whole CHTS length from sensor to terminal 23 on the ECU easily with a continuity tester. It usually gets fried closer to the sensor itself. I had same problem on last two rebuilds.

[76-914]

I'd say if it caught for a moment he is getting fire. I'd double check my timing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Shadowfax]

You may have fouled the plugs. When you primed the pump by cranking it, did you also disconnect the fuel pump relay? If not then you were dumping gas into the cylinder. Try removing all plugs, remove the fuel pump relay and then crank a few times. This will help expel some of the gas. Then try cleaning the plugs or buy a new set.

[Ansbacher]

Did you try starting it a couple of degrees either way off your initial static timing?

Ansbacher

[Olympic 914]

Ok

Worked on it a little more.

So first I set the engine to the O mark on the fan and checked the distributor to be sure I was on TDC on #1 Then I pulled the distributor to recheck the points and found I did NOT replace the condenser AND I had the old Rev-limiting rotor in there still. But the points were new.

So I set the points again to 0.016 and reinstalled the distributor. And static timed it to the 5 degree mark . Then I found the wire for the temp sensor under the plenum was off. ( I probably knocked it off removing the distributor) Also the when reconnecting the green wire from the points to the coil I noticed it had a couple broken strands, So I clipped it off and installed a new end. Hooked all the wires and vacuum hoses back up, got in the car, Held my breath, and turned the key…

ITS ALIVE !!!!

Since I was in the shed with limited ventilation I ran it for about 30 seconds. I had turned in the idle screw on the throttle body, not knowing where it would end up and it settled down at about 2500 rpm. It sounded good. I shut it off because I wanted to move it outside to do the cam break in,
When I move it outside I will adjust the RPMs down to about 2000 rpm for the cam break in.
And maybe put a timing light on it to see where the timing really is.
Also I ordered a new condenser and rev-limiting rotor from Pelican. So I will not get too anal about the timing until after I put those parts in.

Thanks for your suggestions..

[Spoke]

Congratulations!

[Olympic 914]

Now its starts right up but the rpms go to 3000+ and the idle speed screw on the throttle body is IN as far as it will go. the throttle cable has play in it, so that is not causing it. checked the hoses for a vacuum leak but can't find anything that is off right now.

So now I have another issue to look for.

(Edited)

[BeatNavy]

Now its starts right up but the rpms go to 3000+ and the idle speed screw on the throttle body is out as far as it will go. the throttle cable has play in it, so that is not causing it. checked the hoses for a vacuum leak but can't find anything that is off right now.

So now I have another issue to look for.

Do you mean the idle air bypass screw is all the way IN? Out is going to increase idle speed (like a vacuum leak). Put that back in part way (for the time being), check timing again (it could be too far advanced), and thoroughly check for vacuum leaks, particularly a disconnected hose. If your timing is close and the idle air bypass is not all or mostly open and you still can't get below 3,000, then it's a substantial leak (like a big ol' hose unplugged) or the throttle body not seated on manifold.

But congrats on getting it running (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You'll find the issue.

[Olympic 914]

Right .. its screwed IN, my mistake.

Took off the air filter and confirmed that the throttle plate is closed. the idle screw in the throttle body is screwed all the way in. It does affect the rpms though. when I back it out they go UP. Disconnected the AAR valve and plugged that hose going to the cold start valve. Still 3000+ When I unplug it the rpms go up more.

I agree there must be a big assed vacuum leak somewhere, I just can't find a hose off or anything yet.

Throttle body not loose, and has a new gasket on it, but right now I can't rule anything out. Its getting air from somewhere.

[76-914]

Disconnect and plug all the vacuum lines except for the one to the MPS then start it. If it's normal then start plugging the hoses in, one at a time until you find the culprit. If it is still idling high after you've pulled & plugged all the lines check your MPS, the gasket on the oil refill tube and injector seals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Olympic 914]

Disconnect and plug all the vacuum lines except for the one to the MPS then start it. If it's normal then start plugging the hoses in, one at a time until you find the culprit. If it is still idling high after you've pulled & plugged all the lines check your MPS, the gasket on the oil refill tube and injector seals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Removed and plugged the vacuum hoses one at a time, that didn't help. I remember having to make gaskets for the cold start valve so I removed that and although those gaskets looked good I made new ones and smeared a little Indian head gasket sealer on them. - no change.
disconnected and plugged the decel valve, no change.
Next I will take your suggestion and disconnect all the vacuum hoses and plug the ports.

I checked the timing and the red mark @ 27 degrees was about 1 inch or so away (at 3000 rpm) from the notch. when I tried to bring it to the notch... Yep the RPMs increased. So I backed it off.

The MPS was rebuilt with one of the Tangerine kits and set to the 037 specs but no harm in checking it again.

It has to be a pretty big leak to be running at this rpms with the throttle plate closed. You would think it would be obvious. The plenum only has so many connections.

wouldn't a bad injector seal only affect the one cylinder?

It sounds good, no bad noises. I don't run it too long since I don't want to COOK this thing.

Think I'll take the Dogs for a walk.......

[r_towle]

Remove all the vacuum lines except the mps.
Cover all the plenum holes with electrical tape.
Check and verify the distributor advance plates move freely with no binding from full retard to full advance. Sometimes the point screw is too long for that spot and you may have used the short one for the cover clips or advance plates. (Sorry, pull it out again)

It's either air or timing.
Sounds like air.

[914_teener]

Besides a vacum leak which it sounds like as well....


I hope you replaced with new injectors seals and injectors checked to spec.?

[rgalla9146]

Plenums are known to rust out. Did you have a good look at it before it was installed ?

[Olympic 914]

Remove all the vacuum lines except the mps.
Cover all the plenum holes with electrical tape.
Check and verify the distributor advance plates move freely with no binding from full retard to full advance. Sometimes the point screw is too long for that spot and you may have used the short one for the cover clips or advance plates. (Sorry, pull it out again)

It's either air or timing.
Sounds like air.

I will try this next, and check the distributor parts too. Thanks

Put new injector seals in, and had injectors refurbished by Witchhunters. But maybe the seals are not sealing correctly.

And I sanded and painted the plenum myself, So should not be any holes rusted through.

These are all good suggestions and some I have thought of. I can't rule out any possibility until I solve this dilemma.

One thing I haven't checked and will look at today is if somehow the throttle plate is being sucked open some when its running. maybe the spring is not on correctly.

(Just checked and spring is holding throttle plate tight, So one thing down)

It does not seem reasonable that it could run at 3000+ rpm with the throttle plate closed.

[Spoke]

If looking for a vacuum leak, try spraying carb cleaner on all intake components. If you hit the leak the engine tune will change.

[IronHillRestorations]

I'm going to guess ignition. Maybe the distributor drive isn't timed right, or the plug wires are not installed right.