What modern EFI is everybody using, Modern EFI applications on Type-IV engine Options

[TheWeatherMan]

What modern EFI systems is everyone installing on their Type-IV engine?

[jd74914]

I'm putting a MS3X (Megasquirt) on my 2.0L. Non T-IV, but my 2.5LGT motor is getting a Syvecs S8.

May people have used MS1/2 and Microsquirt on with good success. They are really quite capable systems for the money, and far sophisticated enough to run a simple motor. The Microsquirt especially (not as much capability, but fully sealed with better connectors) is pretty well suited for this application.

The $5k your mechanic quoted you for a MoTeC system could be quite the deal (wonder which ECU?), albeit expensive compared to an MS conversion, since the MoTeC hardware is pretty costly.

As a note, getting everything starting/running well is really more a matter of good, thorough tuning than the ECU.

[jimkelly]

seems very few have moved away from stock FI, and of those that did, many have gone to carbs, with the exception of mcmark and his turbo 4.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...54&hl=turbo

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97550

[porschetub]

There was a guy a few years back that used GM ECU and other cheaply sourced parts and supplied it as a kit with loom,ecu,injectors,sensors ,etc to work with other stock components ,basically a programmable modern L-jet system,I liked the idea as it was reasonably priced and could be adapted to run with modified engines.
I think this system would be only good to a point as how far can you go with a single throttle body....don't really know.

[Mark Henry]

I installed SDS way back in 2004, still running the same system in my bug but I re-chipped it to the latest version before V5.
Likely I'm one of the first here running a programmable FI system, at least on a DD.

http://www.sdsefi.com/

My 914 I ran it on a stock 1.8 and 2.0 with a mild carb cam with a pretty well stock D-jet intake (intake used on both the 1.8 and 2.0). Both engines ran flawless, perfect AFR, on the 2.0 I took the programmer off and ran it for 3 years (6+ month seasons) without ever checking it. I'd say it ran like a brand new L-jet, turn the key and go.

My bug is a super hi-performance 2.6L T4, 102x78mm, nickies, JE's, 2.0 big valve heads, Web cam, A1 1-3/4 exhaust etc, etc...
Only issue is because of the 46mm ITB's I can't get a good MAP signal and I have to run it as a TPS only system which may hurt my MPG slightly.
But then again it still runs flawless even on TPS.

I can tell you for 100% sure PEFI doesn't add a single HP, but it can run things, like a performance cam, that stock FI can never run.

[Mueller]

I would guess that there are 5 to 10+ 914s that are running a variation of Megasquirt, I know Kieth Moon daily drives his.

[JamesM]

PEFI alone adds no HP, but a proper tune on top of that PEFI will, especially if your system is controlling your timing as well. Having a full 3 dimensional tuning table for both fuel and spark allows you to dial in the tune and give the engine exactly what it needs everywhere.

I installed SDS way back in 2004, still running the same system in my bug but I re-chipped it to the latest version before V5.
Likely I'm one of the first here running a programmable FI system, at least on a DD.

http://www.sdsefi.com/

My 914 I ran it on a stock 1.8 and 2.0 with a mild carb cam with a pretty well stock D-jet intake (intake used on both the 1.8 and 2.0). Both engines ran flawless, perfect AFR, on the 2.0 I took the programmer off and ran it for 3 years (6+ month seasons) without ever checking it. I'd say it ran like a brand new L-jet, turn the key and go.

My bug is a super hi-performance 2.6L T4, 102x78mm, nickies, JE's, 2.0 big valve heads, Web cam, A1 1-3/4 exhaust etc, etc...
Only issue is because of the 46mm ITB's I can't get a good MAP signal and I have to run it as a TPS only system which may hurt my MPG slightly.
But then again it still runs flawless even on TPS.

I can tell you for 100% sure PEFI doesn't add a single HP, but it can run things, like a performance cam, that stock FI can never run.

[914_teener]

PEFI alone adds no HP, but a proper tune on top of that PEFI will, especially if your system is controlling your timing as well. Having a full 3 dimensional tuning table for both fuel and spark allows you to dial in the tune and give the engine exactly what it needs everywhere.

I installed SDS way back in 2004, still running the same system in my bug but I re-chipped it to the latest version before V5.
Likely I'm one of the first here running a programmable FI system, at least on a DD.

http://www.sdsefi.com/

My 914 I ran it on a stock 1.8 and 2.0 with a mild carb cam with a pretty well stock D-jet intake (intake used on both the 1.8 and 2.0). Both engines ran flawless, perfect AFR, on the 2.0 I took the programmer off and ran it for 3 years (6+ month seasons) without ever checking it. I'd say it ran like a brand new L-jet, turn the key and go.

My bug is a super hi-performance 2.6L T4, 102x78mm, nickies, JE's, 2.0 big valve heads, Web cam, A1 1-3/4 exhaust etc, etc...
Only issue is because of the 46mm ITB's I can't get a good MAP signal and I have to run it as a TPS only system which may hurt my MPG slightly.
But then again it still runs flawless even on TPS.

I can tell you for 100% sure PEFI doesn't add a single HP, but it can run things, like a performance cam, that stock FI can never run.

So James.....just as an observer. What is the minimum required for that?

Hall sensor......knock sensor....O2 sensor?

[wndsrfr]

I'm on SDS on the 2316 Raby kit engine that Drew Rickert built. Did a lot of mapping work on TPS only since the ITB's give a choppy MAP signal. I like the closed loop feature--makes the system seek 14.1:1 when cruising but will drop back to the tabled values when the TPS or RPM exceeds threshold values I set.
Something to note for those thinking about ITB's versus a single throttle body system is that for any cruising at 60mph or less the throttle is just barely cracked. These cars are so efficient, taking so little power to cruise. My readout for the throttle position sensor at idle is 4 on a scale of 50 at WOT. Any steady level road cruising below about 60mph the TPS is still sitting at 4 and will only move to 6 or occasionally 7 under mild acceleration. A single throttle body will provide more resolution to the throttle setting at the low power outputs in normal daily driving.
Then again, when I romp on it & go WOT it's wild acceleration with a sound from the intake that you can't wipe off with a fistful of $100 bills! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[Mark Henry]

PEFI alone adds no HP, but a proper tune on top of that PEFI will, especially if your system is controlling your timing as well. Having a full 3 dimensional tuning table for both fuel and spark allows you to dial in the tune and give the engine exactly what it needs everywhere.

Marketing Koolaid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

3D tuning table? does that help if you drive inverted?
Sequential helps with fuel economy, for the most part below 3000 rpm where the T4 and /6 aircooleds shouldn't be running anyways.
I'm running TPS only and my AFR is as solid as a rock through all RPM's

3D spark map (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) A spark map is about as simple as simple gets. Once you have spark control the dark art of the dizzy curve goes bye-bye. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

Proper sized and tune Webers still win at WOT. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Dtjaden]

Megasquirt MS3X full engine management (FI and ignition). 2056cc engine rebuild, moderate Web Cam (#86), 9.2 CR.

[914forme]

There was a guy a few years back that used GM ECU and other cheaply sourced parts and supplied it as a kit with loom,ecu,injectors,sensors ,etc to work with other stock components ,basically a programmable modern L-jet system,I liked the idea as it was reasonably priced and could be adapted to run with modified engines.
I think this system would be only good to a point as how far can you go with a single throttle body....don't really know.

Yes, well he is gone now, died in a experimental plane crash. I have the manual for this, but you need to get the Eprom programmed. I moved away from the T4 world and never prosed it further.

I have several including SDS, MS, and one out of South Africa that is about as simple as it comes. A couple of old school home brew units. One of them has 5 dials on it, and you tune it like a carb, very interesting setup from the days of old when more people knew carbs than EFI. I have been into PEFI since the reenlist days, if that does not age me, what will (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

BTW, you can make a ton of power with a single TB, then new Dodge Demon uses a single throttle body. The Bugatti Chiron uses two throttle bodies to produce 1479 BPH so thats only 739.5 BPH per TB.

Chiron also uses quad turbos, and 16 cylinders but then you want to go fast you need to spend $$$$$$$$$$$

[falcor75]

Who's going to tune your car? If you know that then go with an ECu that he or she knows well. If you're attempting it yourself then go with an MS version, that way you'll have the broadest experience base to fall back on. I did a Swedish built Maxxecu on my ITB'd 2276. It works well but I think it would have had the engine running faster and had more support from the MS community where there's alot of Aircooled experience.

[Mueller]

Who's going to tune your car? If you know that then go with an ECu that he or she knows well. If you're attempting it yourself then go with an MS version, that way you'll have the broadest experience base to fall back on. I did a Swedish built Maxxecu on my ITB'd 2276. It works well but I think it would have had the engine running faster and had more support from the MS community where there's alot of Aircooled experience.

^this....I had the very 1st running Megasquirt 914 I believe and Dave Hunt might have been the second. When I was calling around trying to find a dyno shop I was turned away from a few places that didn't want deal with it even when I was going to do my own tuning with the laptop.

Things have changes a lot since then and you will find shops that know it now. Local support is nice, I had a Link which I liked however only one West Coast person to talk to on the phone, not even sure if he still around that was 8+ years ago.

[JamesM]

So James.....just as an observer. What is the minimum required for that?

Hall sensor......knock sensor....O2 sensor?

Not sure I understand the question here. The minimum you would need to have full program-ability of fuel and spark maps is an aftermarket EFI system that supports that. If you are talking minimum cost than Megasquirt is usually the answer and that can be built just about any way you want with whatever sensors you want as long as you have the know how to put it together (be warned is a pretty steep learning curve)

[falcor75]

Must have:
Crank position sensor
Throttle position sensor
Coolant temp (warmup only) sensor
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Wideband lambda sensor

With this you can run Alpha-N in wasted spark, will run fine.

Optional:
MAP-sensor
CHT-sensor(s)
Cam position sensor

Now you can run fully sequential and speed density and keep track of your CHT's.

[JamesM]

Marketing Koolaid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

3D tuning table? does that help if you drive inverted?

Maybe if you are comparing to carbs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) but it does allow you to tune more accurately vs systems that follow an analog curve to approximate fuel requirements at given engine conditions see: Carbs, D-jet

Sequential helps with fuel economy, for the most part below 3000 rpm where the T4 and /6 aircooleds shouldn't be running anyways.
I'm running TPS only and my AFR is as solid as a rock through all RPM's

Totally agree, sequential is a waste of time and adds needless complexity

3D spark map (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) A spark map is about as simple as simple gets. Once you have spark control the dark art of the dizzy curve goes bye-bye. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

Digital spark control is way more accurate/consistant than a dizzy at least all the type 4 dizzys i have played with. If you are only playing with an ignition curve in two dimensions (RPM + deg advance) you cannot optimize for all running conditions, 3 dimensions (RPM + engine load + advance) allows for this.

Proper sized and tune Webers still win at WOT. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

I attempted an autocross run entirely at WOT, turnes out other throttle positions are useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nothing against carbs, they are just not my thing.

[JamesM]

Must have:
Crank position sensor
Throttle position sensor
Coolant temp (warmup only) sensor
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Wideband lambda sensor

With this you can run Alpha-N in wasted spark, will run fine.

Optional:
MAP-sensor
CHT-sensor(s)
Cam position sensor

Now you can run fully sequential and speed density and keep track of your CHT's.

Alternatively:
Must have:
Crank position sensor
Throttle position sensor
Coolant temp (warmup only) sensor
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Wideband lambda sensor
MAP Sensor

I have ran like this but you lose some features. Technically you could drop the coolant sensor too but then warmup in cold climates becomes a bit tricky.

[falcor75]

Must have:
Crank position sensor
Throttle position sensor
Coolant temp (warmup only) sensor
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Wideband lambda sensor

With this you can run Alpha-N in wasted spark, will run fine.

Optional:
MAP-sensor
CHT-sensor(s)
Cam position sensor

Now you can run fully sequential and speed density and keep track of your CHT's.

Alternatively:
Must have:
Crank position sensor
Throttle position sensor
Coolant temp (warmup only) sensor
Intake Air Temperature Sensor
Wideband lambda sensor
MAP Sensor

I have ran like this but you lose some features. Technically you could drop the coolant sensor too but then warmup in cold climates becomes a bit tricky.

But then you still had the distributor and no ECU control over spark/timing?
If you're going to do the EFI conversion today using the distributor seems like a half way there solution. Then you might aswell stick with stock injection or carbs.

[jimkelly]

microsquirt diagram