Porsche building cars without a VIN? (911), 914s also, maybe? Options

[Mark Henry]

RD Pete has said one day it may have enough parts to do a body in white, I doubt if they would do it complete, but maybe as a kit.
At this time I'd say they have a bit less than half of the panels needed.

[Tom_T]

"Body in White" is a generic name used by ALL European car manufacturers given to a new bodyshell that has not been allocated an identity.
Colour has nothing to do with it.

The word "White" is used as in a "blank" sheet of paper

At Rolls-Royce our Bodies in white arrive in Grey primer.

I've never seen a Porsche BIW, but given that the factory parts always came in that dark reddish primer, I'd venture a guess that that was the color of the 1960s-70s era BIWs for 911s/912s/914s as well.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Tom_T]

If he really wants a VIN there's this guy in Atlanta... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Again, a licensed shop in most states can reassign a VIN to a BIW or other body by following that state's legal process for same. I don't know GA law, but I do know that they can do it in CA. If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978. .... just to keep the discussion on the legality of dealers & licensed shops doing VIN reassignments/repairs/rebuilds clear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Back in the `70's I knew a guy who had a bad accident in his brand new 911S which he loved, who had Chick Iverson Porsche in Newport Beach do a rebuild with a BIW at a cost all in equal to almost what the car was worth. IIRC he had to pay his deductible & then some, but I don't know what sort of title he ended up with (normal, rebuilt, salvage, or ??).

PS - I also had a HS classmate a year ahead of me who wrecked his `69 911S (Grad present for Class of 69 - rich kid), who simply had a shop transplant his 911S's drivetran, suspension/etc. into a old `59 Splitty Van for the ultimate "Sleeper" painted in partial gray primer. He used to recruit a few of us to sit in the back seat so he could pop wheelies in the school parking lot, & take on all comers at red light drags, he being a big guy in the front seat putting too much weight forward! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif)

I was also talking with one of our OCR 911 aficionados at our Concours last month about Andy T's/SoCalAndy total resurrection & BIWs etc., & he said that there was one of Jerry Seinfeld's famous 911s, which before he bought it was sent to Porsche Classic in Germany for a restoration & it had it's original body swapped for a BIW according to a factory employee he knew who told him about it.

His point revolved around whether that car (a #1 or #2 off the line) is really still an original car - vs. what Andy did to resurrect his original body with a large percentage of new sheet metal & a similar massive reconstruction of another member's 356 pre-A. Sorry, I don't recall the exact car - it was a tail-dragger after all! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

All of this BIW discussion still doesn't answer whether this car the OP asked about is real without a VIN though.

The fact that Rory G. posted that all of the 911Rs are accounted for & had VINs, it makes me wonder more about this one, but not impossible to find another 911R or similar race/purpose built/customer request car was done. But it's going to be a ton of time to research it out if the OO or seller doesn't have paperwork!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[gms]

I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059

When was that -6 body-in-white done Glen? I'd bet at least 15-20 years ago.

IIRC the body-in-white was only the body shell, & also lacked doors, F&R deck & engine lids, & a bunch of other parts to make a complete 914 etc.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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I cannot say when the transformation (on #59) took place but I think it was about 10-15 years ago that I heard about it. I had pictures but I cannot find them. Another example was a GT3 that came into Kelly-Moss racing while I was helping out on a 914/6 restoration. The chassis was tweeked beyond repair so they bought a new body and transferred all the parts over to the new white body.

[gms]

that looks like a 911R. SUPER RARE..

It does not have the front turn signals or door handles of and R so probably not

[gms]

found replacement body pix

[gms]

I believe this was a 4 cylinder car in the Netherlands

[Tom_T]

Thanx Glen!

That's good "documentation" for those who have never heard of a "legal body swap".

There's a body shop here in Orange CA who had a 914-6 in for a resto maybe 10-15+ years ago, who didn't check the longs 1st, & jacked up the rear end & it literally snapped in half, so they had to get a BIW or another shell for the guy to rebuild it & transfer the VIN & Chassis Nos., but I got that from the shop owner when we were talking about it sitting in his shop on "display" until the owner paid the balance & picked it up (gone a week later).

Unfortunately they've switched to doing only accident repair on late madels, cuz it was a nice resto/swap on the -6.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Dave_Darling]

If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978.

I believe Rob is referencing a shop that has tried to sell just a 914-6 VIN on evil-bay. Literally, just the VIN plates with a Six VIN. Whether that shop is licensed to rebuild cars with new chassis or not, just selling the VIN is not kosher.

There was also a World member who did a Six conversion a few years back, and picked up a Six VIN from somewhere (not sure if it was from the GA source) and installed those VIN plates in his car.

It wound up being sold recently, and was represented as a real Six. Very very bad mojo there.

--DD

[mepstein]

If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978.

I believe Rob is referencing a shop that has tried to sell just a 914-6 VIN on evil-bay. Literally, just the VIN plates with a Six VIN. Whether that shop is licensed to rebuild cars with new chassis or not, just selling the VIN is not kosher.

There was also a World member who did a Six conversion a few years back, and picked up a Six VIN from somewhere (not sure if it was from the GA source) and installed those VIN plates in his car.

It wound up being sold recently, and was represented as a real Six. Very very bad mojo there.

--DD

In the 911 world, AA is known as the motor meister of the east. Its just that there are so many sources for 911 parts and labor that they are insignificant. its the lack of choices that sucks in the (unknowing) 914 guys.

[74ravenna]

As it turns out there was another photo.

[rhodyguy]

Would a title be included for the 6 numbers? Could be a major pain in states with picky liciencing rules. Like WA.

Did the cars in white have the wiring installed in them?

[Tom_T]

Did the cars in white have the wiring installed in them?

Not according to my research looking for a 914 BIW. It was just a basic primed body shell like they would start assembly with at the Karmann plant (4's), or ship to Stuttgart (6s).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[larryM]

interesting discussion - there is a 356 thread that gets into some detail about how Porsche would supply a new body shell w/o VIN if the owner of a wrecked car could prove it was "junked"

Porsche then provided some affirmation that the old VIN was re-asssigned to the fresh shell - for a car in Germany, they would have sent a letter to the TUV validating it's resurrection so that it could be re-registered

- and therefore the new body wore the old VIN and - & as noted above - also likely wore many of the salvaged donor pieces from the old body

dunno if it was ever done in the States (tho, an above post suggests yes)

here is the 356 thread
http://www.abcgt.com/forum/4-356-Forum/290...and-Kardex.html
* summary:
"I believe that Porsche required a vin n​r stating that it was destroyed to sell a replacement body.
they did not verify the actual status of the replaced vin.
Providing a good nr was all that was needed to get a new body without buying the entire car.
*
Even some dealers would sell cars that had a replacement body and install exchange motors and transmissions and pay the import duty on parts not vehicles.
*
isn't re bodied an inaccurate term ​(if) ​
the replacement bodies were new production not a repair?
*
Yes, 'replacement' is not a perfect term but is what Porsche used overall. 356 are not VWs where you unbolt the body from the pan. If Porsche says rebodied they meant that a new body was offered as a replacement.
"
*
also see - http://flatsixes.com/cars/porsche-356/myst...e-chassis-1021/
*
here's the UK version of re-bodies -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rec...lassic-vehicles
heritage MGB bodies can be bought http://www.bmh-ltd.com/bodyshells.htm
*
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm...ak/67052/page1/
" Race cars are a whole 'nother ball game. So may Porsche 917's and 956's were wrecked and rebuilt that the same chassis numbers are now 2 complete cars, and both are legitimate!"
*
Vintage Car Law gets into excruciating detail about "re-bodied" cars legality in USA http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=356
*
if that's not enuf to confuse us all - just google it
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+a+r...-8&oe=utf-8
*

[Big Len]

A number of manufacturer's offer these. For example, you can buy a Civic BIW, only for racing.
http://hpd.honda.com/racing-line/racing-li...r=61000-TBJ-200

[rgalla9146]

As it turns out there was another photo.

Early aluminum block and factory megaphones mmmmm!
Standard tailights.
This angle would likely have shown the exposed engine lid hinges.

[ConeDodger]

If he really wants a VIN there's this guy in Atlanta... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Again, a licensed shop in most states can reassign a VIN to a BIW or other body by following that state's legal process for same. I don't know GA law, but I do know that they can do it in CA. If I'm guessing "the guy you know" then they are a licensed shop in GA since 1978. .... just to keep the discussion on the legality of dealers & licensed shops doing VIN reassignments/repairs/rebuilds clear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Back in the `70's I knew a guy who had a bad accident in his brand new 911S which he loved, who had Chick Iverson Porsche in Newport Beach do a rebuild with a BIW at a cost all in equal to almost what the car was worth. IIRC he had to pay his deductible & then some, but I don't know what sort of title he ended up with (normal, rebuilt, salvage, or ??).

PS - I also had a HS classmate a year ahead of me who wrecked his `69 911S (Grad present for Class of 69 - rich kid), who simply had a shop transplant his 911S's drivetran, suspension/etc. into a old `59 Splitty Van for the ultimate "Sleeper" painted in partial gray primer. He used to recruit a few of us to sit in the back seat so he could pop wheelies in the school parking lot, & take on all comers at red light drags, he being a big guy in the front seat putting too much weight forward! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif)

I was also talking with one of our OCR 911 aficionados at our Concours last month about Andy T's/SoCalAndy total resurrection & BIWs etc., & he said that there was one of Jerry Seinfeld's famous 911s, which before he bought it was sent to Porsche Classic in Germany for a restoration & it had it's original body swapped for a BIW according to a factory employee he knew who told him about it.

His point revolved around whether that car (a #1 or #2 off the line) is really still an original car - vs. what Andy did to resurrect his original body with a large percentage of new sheet metal & a similar massive reconstruction of another member's 356 pre-A. Sorry, I don't recall the exact car - it was a tail-dragger after all! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

All of this BIW discussion still doesn't answer whether this car the OP asked about is real without a VIN though.

The fact that Rory G. posted that all of the 911Rs are accounted for & had VINs, it makes me wonder more about this one, but not impossible to find another 911R or similar race/purpose built/customer request car was done. But it's going to be a ton of time to research it out if the OO or seller doesn't have paperwork!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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I'm talking about the guy who sells VIN numbers on eBay. That's legal too, but the only problem is the end user's purpose... he knows the end user's purpose and that is promoting counterfeit 914-6 production.

[lalee914]

I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059

When was that -6 body-in-white done Glen? I'd bet at least 15-20 years ago.

IIRC the body-in-white was only the body shell, & also lacked doors, F&R deck & engine lids, & a bunch of other parts to make a complete 914 etc.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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I cannot say when the transformation (on #59) took place but I think it was about 10-15 years ago that I heard about it. I had pictures but I cannot find them. Another example was a GT3 that came into Kelly-Moss racing while I was helping out on a 914/6 restoration. The chassis was tweeked beyond repair so they bought a new body and transferred all the parts over to the new white body.

Hi Glenn,
According to an e-mail I have from 2004, 9140430059 was sold in 1986 with the replacement chassis. This is a small part of that e-mail.

14/01/1986 Transferred owner: Chris Duncan --> Heddell & Deeks
Chassis: *0310005*/9140-43-0059
Engine: 642-0251
Colour: L20E/Signal Orange

So the chassis swap had to occur 30+ years ago.

[Tom_T]

I believe a “body in white” was just that, a body painted white. I don’t believe there was engine, transaxle, suspension or interior. This was a very popular way to make a 935 out of a 911. The serial numbers were like 000 00022 I believe this was the 22nd body from 1980.
I have heard of one such 914 body in white it replaced the rusted body of 914.043.0059

When was that -6 body-in-white done Glen? I'd bet at least 15-20 years ago.

IIRC the body-in-white was only the body shell, & also lacked doors, F&R deck & engine lids, & a bunch of other parts to make a complete 914 etc.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

I cannot say when the transformation (on #59) took place but I think it was about 10-15 years ago that I heard about it. I had pictures but I cannot find them. Another example was a GT3 that came into Kelly-Moss racing while I was helping out on a 914/6 restoration. The chassis was tweeked beyond repair so they bought a new body and transferred all the parts over to the new white body.

Hi Glenn,
According to an e-mail I have from 2004, 9140430059 was sold in 1986 with the replacement chassis. This is a small part of that e-mail.

14/01/1986 Transferred owner: Chris Duncan --> Heddell & Deeks
Chassis: *0310005*/9140-43-0059
Engine: 642-0251
Colour: L20E/Signal Orange

So the chassis swap had to occur 30+ years ago.

Interesting that a 914 was so heavily rusted that it needed a full BIW more than 30 years ago, which made that 70 -6 only about say 10-17 years old when that heavily tin-wormed out body was redone, depending upon the actual year of the re-body.

I know that even here in "Sunny SoCal" (not always sunny as 72-73 were El Nino years), my 73 (1st sold Nov. 72) had enough rust bubbling occurring by 76, that I had my 1st Rustoration/Repaint done that summer (I bought it from the OO in Dec 75). Mine was cowl & below the sail panels rust bubbles, so not a full re-body level of rust damage.

Before that work, I went to Porsche/PCNA through a local dealer - who said that Porsche was long aware of the rust problems with 914s, 356s & 911s/912s - but PCNA/PAG wouldn't cover any cost on a 3-1/2 year old car with about 58K miles on it by then - so not old. But there were NO 10 year rust perforation warranty back in those days, & in the 1976 MY they started hot dipping the bodies/parts - 911/912E/930 only - since all 76 914s were built before that started, in late 1975.

So the 356 discussions on BIWs above isn't surprising either, but Porsche (VW-Porsche) probably made it worse on 914s with their injected foam.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Tom_T]

I'm talking about the guy who sells VIN numbers on eBay. That's legal too, but the only problem is the end user's purpose... he knows the end user's purpose and that is promoting counterfeit 914-6 production.

I wasn't aware that selling "bare VINs" was legal, but then haven't had time to research it due to other BS going on right now with my Biz office equipment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

However, if something is legal to sell & sold legally by the seller, then later another person misuses them illegally & fraudulently - then I say the fault lies with the latter.

But then, I'm not sure it's legal to sell cut out VIN stampings & plates is legal, or if it were in past days.

At this point I'm only sure about the legality of & existence of a few BIW or "donor body" swaps done in a legal process per US DOT & States' DMV laws.

PS - this article about VIN Transfers/Sales etc. linked in LarryM's post above -
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=356

.... & this one on Rebodies linked within that article -
http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?p=242

.... are both good articles by a PA attorney, & worth reading as a starting point on both VIN transfers & Rebodies.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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