Porsche building cars without a VIN? (911), 914s also, maybe? Options

[gms]

Hi Glenn,
According to an e-mail I have from 2004, 9140430059 was sold in 1986 with the replacement chassis. This is a small part of that e-mail.

14/01/1986 Transferred owner: Chris Duncan --> Heddell & Deeks
Chassis: *0310005*/9140-43-0059
Engine: 642-0251
Colour: L20E/Signal Orange

So the chassis swap had to occur 30+ years ago.

There was a bit of a problem about this in the UK because someone bought 0059 and resurrected that rusted car so there was the new body with all the parts from 0059 and the real 0059 chassis. just remember in the mid-80's these were $10k cars so replacing the body was a better solution.

[larryM]

in the British world - you may see titles & plates & vin tags advertised as "wall art"

- "legal" apparently depends on where they are made vs where the particular guvmint entity has particular rules - once you buy 'em - what you do is your opportunity (or problem)

of course we can also just buy blank tags - Stoddard sells 'em for 914 inner fenders; most Brit suppliers sell 'em = DIY, AND we can have windshield tags re-pro'd with correct stamps from a couple of our favorite euro suppliers; plus one of our own & at least one euro supplier will make you perfect repro VIN-nr door stickers

I wasn't aware that selling "bare VINs" was legal, but then haven't had time to research it due to other BS going on right now

However, if something is legal to sell & sold legally by the seller, then later another person misuses them illegally & fraudulently - then I say the fault lies with the latter.

But then, I'm not sure it's legal to sell cut out VIN stampings & plates is legal, or if it were in past days.

Tom
///////

[larryM]

.... someone bought 0059 and resurrected that rusted car so there was the new body with all the parts from 0059 and the real 0059 chassis. just remember in the mid-80's these were $10k cars so replacing the body was a better solution.

yes - not worth much in the day, an overarching operative phrase in some of our memories - happened frequently & still does in the "old race cars" world;

we are talking about cars with under 10 yrs all-season road life in places where there is winter & salt on the roads - i owned a '67 911 in Iowa in 1971 that folded in half when you put the factory jack in the jack-point under the rocker - a 4yr old car!), & have seen plenty of similar 914s in the midwest - the 911 had spent it's short useful life as a daily driver in the Chicago-Milwaukee corridor

long before our current fetish with "originality" became vogue - they were just cars and they were fixed as necessary, or not... they were just cars, cheap, fun & temporary & often prone to rusting out well before their 10th anniversary

many of us are now happy to own an originally numbered & titled vintage car with a paper trail, no matter how many body parts, & engines, have been replaced with newer/bigger/better that never existed in 1970xx?

here's Classic Motorsports regarding judging at Amelia Concours:

" Originality is also much more elusive with classic race cars, since most were updated constantly during their racing careers. When a now-priceless original motor was damaged, it was quickly and unceremoniously replaced with another. When sponsors and owners came & went, iconic livery was simply painted over. All this change makes restoring and therefore judging one of these cars very difficult." ~ Tim Suddard.

... do note that Amelia now has a special class for classic race cars that are beneficiaries of 6-figure restorations - cuz they still cannot measure up to unrestored preserved originals that are 200% better than when they rolled off the line)

some yrs ago i helped a friend rescue a TransAm Dodge Dart once driven by famously reclusive Ron Grable - it had been wrecked, carved-on, welded-onto, extended, shortened, aero'd, & refitted so any times in it's "career" for various venues that it was unrecognizable - so - we found & b'ot an original Dart body in a Bay Area wrecking yard - paid $1000 iirc -- & started over - guess we'd call that a "rebody" - registering it for street was never an issue, the law was irrelevant -
www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1966/Riverside-1966-09-18-088a.jpg
www.historictransam.com/Drivers/GaryUnderwood67Dodge18.html

p.s. - we don't all live in California USA
(where, indeed, it is illegal to cut a vin plate out of a body or even remove a riveted or screwed-on plate)

(not to mention putting a non-oem motor into a post 1976 anything - which is why we CA guys all want pre-75 Porsches, etc & put newer/bigger/better engines in 'em))









.

[larryM]

just got my weekly update - interesting to read all this on "one page"

overnight tho'ts - in all the yrs of association with Porsche's (PCA since '76 when i got my second Porsche which i still have);

there was always a rumor that a person with a pile of cash could send a pile of junk to Germany & Porsche would send it back whole & as-new - maybe in a couple years....

i think the collection of disparate knowledge bits in this thread generally now confirm that rumor

back-in-the-day, the only way any of us ever got any info was by word-of-mouth at event gatherings (swaps, DE-track-days, AX, etc) or by spending money at a Porsche specialty shop that knew answers but were understandably chary about giving it away for free (and still are).

Info was mostly sketchy of the "i heard from x that y heard about... z ... who said ... " (well, OK, we see that on our forums too - fortunately interlaced with enlightened actual evidence at times)

- we went to the Porsche dealer for parts for yesterday's problem (or to local VW since there were so many mechanical interchanges) - not to search thru a catalog for curiosities to discuss at the cafe or bar

almost none of us had access to that PET body-in-white parts nr posted above, save a few parts guys with paper catalogs - most of whom were unlikely to care much about or ever had a call for a new body shell; very few dealer parts guys were buddies who would have let us handle their catalogs (or later the proprietary electronic PET) just for an afternoon's entertainment

- and virtually none of us work-a-days guys or college students were in the high-roller class that could have b'ot one, so mostly we just junked the cars or passed 'em on to slowly decay under a new owner

- now - thanks to the internet & free access to publications (like PET), we can all be informed by the experts who are immersed in the research

so far - this thread has been confined to the O.P.'s 911 question and related 914 commentary with our usual proclivity for diversion, & so far as i know, the primary issue not being read/commented by the larger 911 or 356 communities where more cognoscenti with longer histories in Porsche parts buying & restorations lurk

*********************
so - i posted the question on Pelican as follows:

threads started on Pelican
911 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...te-history.html
912 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-912...body-white.html
356 http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-356...tml#post9664511

"question inspired by recent thread on 914World & old thread on 356 forum (links below)

in all my yrs of association with Porsche's (PCA since '76 when i got my second Porsche which i still have) there was always a rumor that a person with a pile of cash could send a pile of junk to Germany & Porsche would send it back whole & as-new - maybe in a couple years .... i think the collection of disparate knowledge bits in this 914 thread generally confirm that rumor

(my question is primarily about "older Porsche's" - not about USA cars that are "salvage-titled" after insurance settlements - a different, more recent scenario)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...313127&st=0

www.abcgt.com/forum/4-356-Forum/29099-Re-bodied-cars-and-Kardex.html

whom among us has some definitive knowledge & explanation of the detail and extent of obtaining such replacement factory bodies? ... "

****************
p.s. - i think the issue of "what primer color" the parts were is kind'a irrelevant - there are enuf old threads about the "white" thick "primer we find under our oem paint on not only our Porsche forums but also many other euro-car forums - if a shell or any body piece was shipped out of Karmann as bare steel it would have quickly developed surface rust rendering the next stages of finish subject to failure, the same as happens today right after we strip a body, which is why we must very quickly treat any bare part with chemical potions to forestall that

one of you guys here with old-timer factory-worker contacts in Germany might be able to tell us what was sprayed on the pre-'76 bodies before they were pushed out the door - or if they were dipped, or both?

?

[davep]

9140430059 was an AFN test car, and used by the press for articles. Sometime in mid 1971 it was badly crashed into a telephone pole (by somebody from the UK Porsche Club who had it on test). AFN had the body replaced, and the old chassis was left around until some mechanic resurrected it with 914/4 parts. A few years after the chassis was replaced the whole drive train and interior was replaced with parts from a 1972 914/6 that was crashed after only 3 weeks. So about now the car retained only it's original registration and license tag and perhaps some suspension parts. When the original chassis was resurrected, it had to get a "kit car" registration. The owner of the replacement body managed to obtain the original engine, but apparently the original transmission # is not known, and that transmission was lost at some point. About 1991 the replacement body was fully restored. The owner was in contact with the owner of the original chassis to see if the car could be purchased. I am not aware of what has transpired since 2004 when I was last in contact.

As for the 911, it should have a serial # of sorts if only the production #. If there is no # stamped in the chassis in the usual location, then the kneepad will have to be removed to find the production #. Depending on the age of the chassis it could be a 13xxx number or a 0x1yyyy number. I do try and keep track of these chassis.

[larryM]

Dave - trying to follow this 0059 history ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

1. was AFN = armed forces network or?

2. AFN had the body replaced

- was this with a factory provided "body-in-white" done where & by whom?

my research on other sites suggests that Porsche would sel a fresh shell & authorize "transfer' of the original serial number (VIN) onto a fresh body-in-white if presented with evidence that the oem body was trashed beyond repair

3. A few years after the chassis was replaced the whole drive train and interior was replaced with parts from a 1972 914/6 ...

at this point i am lost - which car are you referring to here - did 0059 with its presumably authorized new body get the '72 /6 parts, or did the original wrecked & resurrected chassis get them?

4. The owner of the replacement body managed to obtain the original engine -

when you say replacement body - do you mean the AFN re-body, or the resurrected "kit" registered body?

5. About 1991 the replacement body was fully restored

- does this mean the AFN "re-body" with it's legitimate Porsche authorized VIN & '72 parts, or the "kit reg'd" body was restored?

if i am following this correctly - the 1991 owner-restorer obtained the oem 1970 engine that had been replaced by the '72 engine?

the fact that this apparently all happened in Britain tends to confound the story since they have a different process for certifying & registering cars than we USA folks comprehend

- of course, this also was 40 yrs ago, when the rules were different (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

9140430059 was an AFN test car, and used by the press for articles. Sometime in mid 1971 it was badly crashed into a telephone pole (by somebody from the UK Porsche Club who had it on test). AFN had the body replaced, and the old chassis was left around until some mechanic resurrected it with 914/4 parts.

A few years after the chassis was replaced the whole drive train and interior was replaced with parts from a 1972 914/6 that was crashed after only 3 weeks. So about now the car retained only it's original registration and license tag and perhaps some suspension parts. When the original chassis was resurrected, it had to get a "kit car" registration. The owner of the replacement body managed to obtain the original engine, but apparently the original transmission # is not known, and that transmission was lost at some point. About 1991 the replacement body was fully restored. The owner was in contact with the owner of the original chassis to see if the car could be purchased. I am not aware of what has transpired since 2004 when I was last in contact.

As for the 911, it should have a serial # of sorts if only the production #. If there is no # stamped in the chassis in the usual location, then the kneepad will have to be removed to find the production #. Depending on the age of the chassis it could be a 13xxx number or a 0x1yyyy number. I do try and keep track of these chassis.