** Need some help ** Options

[KaptKaos]

I took my 914 to a reputable shop here locally to have some work done. It was running roughly and I didn't have time to monkey with it myself.

Anyway, while there and on a test drive with me in the car, the brake pedal went straight to the floor. I had previously always had firm brakes, good pads, and no other braking problems.

We get back to the shop and look at the pedals and there is fluid everywhere. Ok, master is shot. Ok to replace it with a new 19mm master. Call the shop a few days after parts arrive, new master is in, but the pedal is still mushy. Shop owner asks me if I want to replace the brake lines. I didn't really, but I had a set braided lines, so I drop them off. Still no improvement. Owner suggests to remove the proportioning valve and replace it with a T-connector. T - connector is a $15 part, he does it all the time - fine, go ahead.

A couple days go by (been really busy at work) and I stop by this AM and the brakes are still really mushy and go all the way to the floor. Pumping them up brings the pressure back but its still a problem. I call this afternoon and speak with the owner. He tells me that they found a leak in a hard line that runs from the pedal cluster back towards the firewall. I am going to go look at it tomorrow first hand. How we fix that line and how it broke are still open issues as well.

So it looks like it may not have been the brake master or the proportioning valve and definetly not the brake lines.

I take the car to this person because he has a good reputation, has been very fair with me in the past and for his expertise in solving these problems. Given what we have found - what is reasonable to expect in terms of the labor charges?

Any guidelines here would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ May 20 2005, 10:25 PM)

... it sounds like they broke your hard line replacing wih a "T".

that 'Z' -shaped line that runs from the input to the proportioning valve, up through the gap in the firewalls and into the tunnel is a b!tch to replace - you have to get the bends exactly right and then snake it up into a place you can't see at all.

"replace hard line" sounds like it could be a 10-minute job but i recall it taking me about 3 evenings the first time i did it. i even ordered the 'correct' part from the dealer hoping it'd come with the right bends, but it didn't - it was just the 'right' length. if i'd been smart, i'd have pulled it back out when i got it right and traced a template but i was so relieved to have it done i connected the fittings and moved on.

[redshift]

QUOTE (Eric_Shea @ May 20 2005, 11:59 PM)

I'm officially lost Joe... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wacko.gif)

Oh don't worry at all, we have several search partys out looking for you... just stay where you are.


M

[MecGen]

Gmorning...
I had too many beers, then got on the PC and had way too many more. Strange week.
It was a negetive post that nobody needed to hear (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)
Its here somewhere, if I can find it
Later
Joe

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Eric_Shea]

QUOTE

Oh don't worry at all, we have several search partys out looking for you... just stay where you are

Still waiting... I've been flashing my compact mirror at every passing 914 but they JUST DON'T SEE ME (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

[rhodyguy]

what is the name, and the size of the shop owner's boat? i worked for a guy who named his newer, bigger one "Change Order". (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif)

k

[KaptKaos]

QUOTE (markb @ May 21 2005, 04:33 AM)

QUOTE (KaptKaos @ May 20 2005, 03:36 PM) I took my 914 to a reputable shop here locally to have some work done. I take the car to this person because he has a good reputation, has been very fair with me in the past and for his expertise in solving these problems.  Given what we have found - what is reasonable to expect in terms of the labor charges?   Taking these 2 statements into account, it sounds like the shop took a logical approach to solving your problem. While I personally wouldn't use stainless lines, or ever use a "t" in a stock car, when you're tracing a problem, you don't know where it will end. If this is truly a reputable shop, as you say, why are you trying to get out of paying what is due? Did they not do the work? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so please don't take it personal. If you had had the time to work on the car, you probably would have had advice from this board to check the things the mech also checked, and much the same as he did, with much the same result. But that's hindsight, and it's always 20/20. Bottom line here is do you trust the shop? If not, pay your bill & take it somwhere else. If another mech finds that the first messed up, do something about it. Otherwise keep tracing your gremlins down & eradicate them.

Since the brakes failed while at his shop, what should I have done? Driven it home?

[seanery]

Hey Joe, was this Alex? If so, he's usually fair on things like this.

[Joe Bob]

R and R on a master cylinder is ALWAYS a bitch to get all the air out.... I have found that bleed, bleed, tap on each caliper, bleed, bleed, wait a day and do it all over again is the only way.

[Gint]

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 20 2005, 09:14 PM)

So is it time for BOOBS?

Absolutely!

[Rusty]

I dunno. I'd want to see exactly where it's leaking before they do anymore.

IMO, if the system built pressure before, then it wasn't leaking. Air in the lines, sure... but not leaking.

Makes me wonder if they goobed something up replacing one of your parts.

I don't like to pay to help someone up the learning curve. If I go to a mechanic/technician (especially a Porsche tech) I expect him to have a certain level of technical savvy and am willing to pay fairly for it. Don't train on my dime. But if it was an honest service, I have no problem writing the check.

The real question is... what does your gut tell you? Do you think you're being screwed?

[Cap'n Krusty]

A new master cylinder seems like a good call if there was fluid all over the floor. They fail often. There's a sudden failure, often followed by a subsequent period of "working fine". Sometimes they leak internally, but they often leak on the floor, too, and eat up the pedal bushings. It's obvious to me that the line in the tunnel broke, and probably right near the front. I've seen these fail literally dozens of times in VW bugs, why not teeners? They rust through from the outside, or sometimes from the inside if the fluid isn't changed every couple of years. The advantage on a bug is the line runs along the OUTSIDE of the tunnel. Being on the floor, and hidden in the tunnel, it's gonna be the LAST thing you look for. As for the prop valve, I have yet to see a bad one, 32 years and counting. As for those SS braided lines, be prepared to go over EVERY one twice a year, with a bright light and a careful eye. What you suffered this time is the way they announce their failure. Rubber (OE) lines last an avarage of about 10 times longer. BTW, I don't think the 19mm master cylinder makes more pressure, and I believe it takes MORE pedal pressure (movement) to achieve the same movement of the fluid, relative to the 17mm part. The Cap'n

[mikester]

At this point I don't think it would be wise to name the shop or mechanic.

But Joe, in my conversation with the Shop Foreman Friend of mine what I described as our "mechanic" he described as a "parts changer."

As I said this morning; we can't get away with throwing hardware at a problem to fix something without resolving that the hardware is actually the problem.

I think the mechanic needs to work with you on the labor charges.

[KaptKaos]

Thanks all for the help and advice.

The mechanic is going to pull the line so we can have a look see Monday.

I went to look today and there is about 1/4" - 1/2" of brake fluid in the tunnel.

I could not see or feel any holes or anything, but the space is really limited in there.

The hard line comes to a barrel connector right before the firewall and that area is all dry. It seems like it coming from the front and sloshing back.

I looked at the lines and realized that rust is not likely and issue as the lines are aluminum. It would have to be some odd wear or over torque situation.

I will know more on Monday. Pix to follow as well.

Thanks again for all of your help.

- Joe