Holley EFI, Not just for American 4BBL carb replacements anymore... Options

[914pipe]

A number of good options. I would probably choose any adaptable (or stock) Bosch Motronic system over any of them, but that is rarely feasible.

Hear the criticism about Holley's system, but still interested. Yes, it's a carburetor company, but perhaps it's a solid company that's seen the future and is bringing a good product to market—learning from the existing systems. At the very least, my mechanic and a colleague of his he trusts seem very interested. So, too, am I. Especially if it presents a solid system that's an alternative to carbs or Motec. Whether it's better than MS or the others is the real question. Not seeing the answer to that here, but it may be too early for that. And the good news is that there are at least two systems detailed here that do appeal to me....

IDK if you have seen videos in youtube from Cleetus McFarland. That guy have a "death cart" (based on a Corvette) with a twin turbo LS engine doing over 1k HP and is running on a Holley EFI system. It seems you won't go wrong with this system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i7Nm7evh8w

[Andyrew]

Ya but the Holley efi was essentially designed for a modern V8, especially a LS motor. Not to be used on anything like some of the others. The Megasquirt systems were designed to be as versital as possible.


Also Cletus is making like 14-1600hp. They just put a larger exhaust housing on and their old Dyno numbers were like 11-1200 wheel hp when maxed out. It's fun watching the progress of his cars, but the fluff stuff is Meh.

[horizontally-opposed]

Apparently, Holley recently released a system set up to work on anything...and one that works very well on six ITBs for a flat six, according to a master Porsche builder. I'm guessing that's the PMO setup, unfortunately priced to keep carbs worthy of equal consideration.

Fwiw, one thing the V8 peeps get right is power, and how to make it. They understand it, and are focused on it in a way Porsche people aren't. Lots of people in my industry make fun of GM, but the smart ones respect GM Powertrain.

Meanwhile, threads like these are what has kept me away from MS:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...7904&st=600

Seven years and still working to get it right. Carbs look wonderful by comparison, and I wouldn't expect better results because I definitely wouldn't put myself ahead of Zach or Mark or any of the others involved.

Motec systems set up by pros seem to work really well, but used to (used to) make MFI and Motronic look cheap. And now there's a Holley system that at least one Porsche engine builder is saying works great for 1/4 the price of Motec, or 1/2~ the price of a "budget" Motec system? A price point that might start making sense if I sell my Webers and Electramotive ignition system? Color me interested...

[TravisNeff]

Holley seems to have a few efi systems, which one are you talking about?

[horizontally-opposed]

Holley seems to have a few efi systems, which one are you talking about?

Still trying to figure out which one went onto the 911 engine(s) I heard about, hence my question to the World here...to see if any of our builders have gone a similar route.

Will pursue, as the glowing review got me interested. I believe it had to do with UI, compatibility with existing ITB units, ease of setup, and ease of tuning.

pete

[Mueller]

Chris Baker (tygaboy) is going to use the Holley HP EFI package on his LS3 running individual throttle bodies so I'd see no reason same system couldn't be used on a flat /4 or flat /6.

They claim:

NEW V4 SOFTWARE FEATURES
“Quick Start” ignition and fueling strategy for LS x Engines
Data Logger. Scalable axes, Smoothing, Multiple graph view ability, Pre-defined notes fields and many more
Strip Chart Real-Time Data Viewer
Integrated Boost Control - Boost vs Time, Boost vs Gear (Time or RPM), Boost vs RPM, Boost vs Speed, Launch control. Boost launch builder, Over-boost safeties, Boost scramble
Traction Control - Power reduction via timing, nitrous percentage or boost (Requires Davis Technologies Holley Module)
“Quick Start” fueling for all engines
Option for VE based fueling strategy
Fuel Map and Learn Function Smoothing

The ECU alone is $1100 which isn't too bad. Personally if I was to do the aftermarket EFI again I'd go Haltech (no more DOS based programs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) (the more I read about the Holley HP/Avenger and Dominator ecus the more I like them).

I know Hot Rod and the other V8 biased magazines really like the Holley EFI stuff. I know for the many older hot rod guys the main appeal to this new generation of EFI is plug and play. Not everyone wants to spend the time and money for dynos to get the EFI to play nice with the motor.

"Self tuning" is like the holy grail for some people. I think there would be more aftermarket EFI installs on 914s if someone knew for a fact that in one weekend they could remove their carbs or D-jet/L-jet and install MS or Haltech or the Holley and know that once they turn the key their motor will run as good or better than before without having to turn on the laptop and figure out which button to press or 3D map to play with.


The Dominator ECU can support dual drive by wire TB's, that would be neat with a /4 or /6 , no linkage would really clean up the install and avoid some issues people have with them.

[VaccaRabite]

Meanwhile, threads like these are what has kept me away from MS:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...7904&st=600

Seven years and still working to get it right. Carbs look wonderful by comparison, and I wouldn't expect better results because I definitely wouldn't put myself ahead of Zach or Mark or any of the others involved.

I had a lot of shitty life stuff slowing me down. Basically took 3 years off playing with cars. By all means put yourself ahead of me. I'm just slightly more advanced then an ape with a dull rock. But I can say that my car runs better now then it ever did with carbs.

Zach

[ConeDodger]

Chris Baker (tygaboy) is going to use the Holley HP EFI package on his LS3 running individual throttle bodies so I'd see no reason same system couldn't be used on a flat /4 or flat /6.

They claim:

NEW V4 SOFTWARE FEATURES
“Quick Start” ignition and fueling strategy for LS x Engines
Data Logger. Scalable axes, Smoothing, Multiple graph view ability, Pre-defined notes fields and many more
Strip Chart Real-Time Data Viewer
Integrated Boost Control - Boost vs Time, Boost vs Gear (Time or RPM), Boost vs RPM, Boost vs Speed, Launch control. Boost launch builder, Over-boost safeties, Boost scramble
Traction Control - Power reduction via timing, nitrous percentage or boost (Requires Davis Technologies Holley Module)
“Quick Start” fueling for all engines
Option for VE based fueling strategy
Fuel Map and Learn Function Smoothing

The ECU alone is $1100 which isn't too bad. Personally if I was to do the aftermarket EFI again I'd go Haltech (no more DOS based programs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) (the more I read about the Holley HP/Avenger and Dominator ecus the more I like them).

I know Hot Rod and the other V8 biased magazines really like the Holley EFI stuff. I know for the many older hot rod guys the main appeal to this new generation of EFI is plug and play. Not everyone wants to spend the time and money for dynos to get the EFI to play nice with the motor.

"Self tuning" is like the holy grail for some people. I think there would be more aftermarket EFI installs on 914s if someone knew for a fact that in one weekend they could remove their carbs or D-jet/L-jet and install MS or Haltech or the Holley and know that once they turn the key their motor will run as good or better than before without having to turn on the laptop and figure out which button to press or 3D map to play with.


The Dominator ECU can support dual drive by wire TB's, that would be neat with a /4 or /6 , no linkage would really clean up the install and avoid some issues people have with them.

I worry about “Hot Rod and other V8 biased” magazines actually carrying bias into the editorial side of the house. Do they really like it? Or, do they really like the resulting ad dollars when the editorially ‘like’ it.

[Mueller]

I worry about “Hot Rod and other V8 biased” magazines actually carrying bias into the editorial side of the house. Do they really like it? Or, do they really like the resulting ad dollars when the editorially ‘like’ it.

That did cross my mind when writing that.

[jd74914]

I worry about “Hot Rod and other V8 biased” magazines actually carrying bias into the editorial side of the house. Do they really like it? Or, do they really like the resulting ad dollars when the editorially ‘like’ it.

I often suspect the latter, especially for EFI systems. Mainstream magazines don't generally seem to cover the really cool stuff in terms of vehicle controls/electronics.

The HP EFI is rather low on I/O, even for the price. The Dominator has a bunch of I/O, but at $2000 is getting into the range of higher end stuff with likely better control strategies.

[horizontally-opposed]

^ It's a fair worry with some of those books. I don't know that side of the game all that well, but I get the sense the editorial freedom we enjoyed at Ross (Sports Car International, Excellence, Bimmer, Corvette, etc) wasn't too common.

[Chris914n6]

The innovative stuff isn't going to come from a corporation, it's going to be the hungry single purpose upstart.
The Holley specs per dollar isn't that impressive, but the tablet gauge cluster is nice.

Advertisers are always awesome in the mag business. They will even fund an article or three...

[burton73]

For a GM V8 It looks like all the parts for the Self Tuning Holley Sniper with a small diameter EFI Distributor that will fit in the 914 without cutting the rear trunk wall is around $1,750. With all sensors, fuel pump clamps fuel line in a master kit as well as a small screen monitor for set up.

Up to 650 HP.

I think this is what I need.

Bob B

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sunglasses.gif)

[Mark Henry]

When I think about EFI, I like the idea of the "who" behind the system.

Any company can go out, but I put more stock in Holley or something like Andrew pointed out (the MS3 unit). I think about some of the old Haltech or other random systems, and trying to keep a 368 or 486 laptop going to support them.

Only way I'd do the Holley or MS3 is if I could use ITBs made for a flat six (i.e. PMOs). But the prices of these units are getting pretty interesting compared to Motec systems of not long ago—even the "budget" ganged four-cylinder Motec setups where you controlled a flat six like an inline three. Now we are seeing price points that make a conversion from a good, sellable set of 911 Webers pretty interesting.

It isn't a bad time to be a car enthusiast...

Pete, I still recall our conversation a decade or so back at that drive-in in Napa Valley. You were right of course, the SDS system I used was only a bit better than a well tuned carb. Perhaps in its defense, it was controlling ITB’s that had massive vacuum fluctuations. Your argument, that the factory systems were so much more sophisticated was on my mind when I decided to go with the factory system on the 3.2 that ultimately found its way into my car.
I do think the MS3 described by Andyrew is a much more advanced system and it’s hard to believe SDS is in the same price range. I plan on using this system with the new engine I’m putting in my 240Z.

No one is criticizing the SDS support. It’s the function I was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Again I ask did you try TPS only? I already know the answer...you didn't.
IIRC your reply to this question was if it won't run proper in MAP it's not a good system.

So basically you're blaming SDS for your improper tuning and a bad engine/intake/cam choices for your expectations.
BTW I'm pretty sure I'm running the same cam you did.

The 3.2 with stock FI is a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) comparison, one is a stock (or near stock) engine and the other is is a hot cam, ITB, poor vacuum, double stock HP engine.

All aftermarket FI systems with ITB's, hot cams and therefore poor vacuum signals have issue with the MAP sensor.
MS is no different, same issue you have to run in what they call "alpha-N" which is exactly what SDS calls TPS only. MS does have an advantage in a single TB with hot cam app as you can help TPS (blend) with MAF sensor.

Running TPS only I've found only a few cons. In stop and go traffic below 3000rpm the engine has trouble at a steady speed. You have to slowly accelerate/decelerate or stay above 3000rpm.
You have to program in a TPS fuel cut or it backfires on deceleration.
The other is in TPS only you turn off altitude correction, exact same thing happens running MS in aplha-N, but the SDS has a rich/lean knob that can be used to easily correct this.

Other than that it runs great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Xmmf9G7Ns



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaFf14DgUs8

[Mark Henry]

Again I wasn't really hauling it as it's hard to hold the camera, talk, shift, steer all at the same time. This car will haul ass when I wan't it to, at 180hp and 1700lbs it has a respectable power to weight ratio.
That's a 90 mph speedo, I've it right around pinned back at zero a few times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPX0ssYRWts

[ConeDodger]

When I think about EFI, I like the idea of the "who" behind the system.

Any company can go out, but I put more stock in Holley or something like Andrew pointed out (the MS3 unit). I think about some of the old Haltech or other random systems, and trying to keep a 368 or 486 laptop going to support them.

Only way I'd do the Holley or MS3 is if I could use ITBs made for a flat six (i.e. PMOs). But the prices of these units are getting pretty interesting compared to Motec systems of not long ago—even the "budget" ganged four-cylinder Motec setups where you controlled a flat six like an inline three. Now we are seeing price points that make a conversion from a good, sellable set of 911 Webers pretty interesting.

It isn't a bad time to be a car enthusiast...

Pete, I still recall our conversation a decade or so back at that drive-in in Napa Valley. You were right of course, the SDS system I used was only a bit better than a well tuned carb. Perhaps in its defense, it was controlling ITB’s that had massive vacuum fluctuations. Your argument, that the factory systems were so much more sophisticated was on my mind when I decided to go with the factory system on the 3.2 that ultimately found its way into my car.
I do think the MS3 described by Andyrew is a much more advanced system and it’s hard to believe SDS is in the same price range. I plan on using this system with the new engine I’m putting in my 240Z.

No one is criticizing the SDS support. It’s the function I was talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Again I ask did you try TPS only? I already know the answer...you didn't.
IIRC your reply to this question was if it won't run proper in MAP it's not a good system.

So basically you're blaming SDS for your improper tuning and a bad engine/intake/cam choices for your expectations.
BTW I'm pretty sure I'm running the same cam you did.

The 3.2 with stock FI is a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) comparison, one is a stock (or near stock) engine and the other is is a hot cam, ITB, poor vacuum, double stock HP engine.

All aftermarket FI systems with ITB's, hot cams and therefore poor vacuum signals have issue with the MAP sensor.
MS is no different, same issue you have to run in what they call "alpha-N" which is exactly what SDS calls TPS only. MS does have an advantage in a single TB with hot cam app as you can help TPS (blend) with MAF sensor.

Running TPS only I've found only a few cons. In stop and go traffic below 3000rpm the engine has trouble at a steady speed. You have to slowly accelerate/decelerate or stay above 3000rpm.
You have to program in a TPS fuel cut or it backfires on deceleration.
The other is in TPS only you turn off altitude correction, exact same thing happens running MS in aplha-N, but the SDS has a rich/lean knob that can be used to easily correct this.

Other than that it runs great.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Xmmf9G7Ns



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaFf14DgUs8

My apologies to those trying to learn from this thread. SDS was mentioned only because of a conversation I had with Pete about it on a BBQ/Tour day. It is pretty Stone Age compared to what is available now. Randall tried it in TPS and it was a compromise at best.

Although I autocross occasionally and do lots of track days, my car primarily sees street time. I can’t be bothered with rich/lean knobs and such. That’s great for aircraft which was originally the SDS target market, but there are just so many better systems now.

Sadly, I am sure Mark will keep pushing TPS and SDS and probably want us all to sing “Oh Canada.” He can’t help himself. It’s all he apparently knows. I know, that others who ran SDS in TPS couldn’t get it to run right in traffic. 10 years ago, I knew a dozen locals running SDS. All of them have moved on.

[horizontally-opposed]

Suspect we are turning a corner from aftermarket EFI, or at least hope we are. For me, the dream is to avoid the nightmare that some here have experienced.

I've seen that accomplished with Motec set up by professionals for 10-20 years now at wild costs, but less often (never?) with the "lesser" systems. Given the leaps in other digital technology, I guess I am simply interested in seeing the latest take on how the cat can be skinned.

pete

[Mark Henry]

Suspect we are turning a corner from aftermarket EFI, or at least hope we are. For me, the dream is to avoid the nightmare that some here have experienced.

I've seen that accomplished with Motec set up by professionals for 10-20 years now at wild costs, but less often (never?) with the "lesser" systems. Given the leaps in other digital technology, I guess I am simply interested in seeing the latest take on how the cat can be skinned.

pete

Honestly I don't think we are, I've seen more bells and whistles, complexity, a bit more flexibility on ignition and sensor choices, reliability, information (forum help), but nothing I'd truly call PEFI innovation in 10-15 years.
NA Fuel injection still doesn't beat carbs at WOT.
Where FI shines is fuel economy, maintenance (one sorted) and turbo applications, so we're talking daily driver.

To me SDS is the easiest to tune as often no dyno time is required, but all of the systems are complex to install and do right.
The reason I like SDS is it's relative simplicity for the backyard wrench. I've personally seen way too many FI projects languish or be altogether abandoned.

Why did I go with webers on my NA 914/6 conversion?
On a low mileage, low use summer play car I didn't feel PEFI was worth the huge time investment, complexity and cost for the cars application.

Plus a /6 runs real good on sorted carbs and I got a smokin' deal on my carbs and twinplug dizzy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mark Henry]

What is your project? stock engine? rebuilt? good used? performance build? turbo? budget?
Or are you looking for something to write an article on?

Clean slate performance street /6 on a occasional driver fun car I'd spend my money on the piston and cylinders, cams, heads and headers and buy PMO carbs and a 123 dizzy.
In this scenario I'd only be looking at FI if my budget wasn't a concern.

No PEFI system does anything for horsepower, it just can run things that the stock FI systems can't. It also can help with race G forces, but PMO has addressed most of the weber issues.
FI does get better MPG and does shine at managing turbo systems, but again no true HP gain.

Fancy electronics don't change the fact N/A HP still comes from the bore and stroke, piston design, CR, cams, headers and heads.

[Mueller]

I saw this motor on Hemmings today, I bet one could adapt the Holley EFI to this: