Holley EFI, Not just for American 4BBL carb replacements anymore... Options

[73-914]

bet it doesn't run to well

[mb911]

I saw this motor on Hemmings today, I bet one could adapt the Holley EFI to this:

Yes and I agree I bet it runs reasonably well though probably not got for Hi performance apps..

I considered that as a option using FI tech injection..

[horizontally-opposed]

I saw this motor on Hemmings today, I bet one could adapt the Holley EFI to this:

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/barf.gif)

[Mark Henry]

You can get almost anything to work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

With large duration cams and ITB's any engine is going to have vacuum issues. If you want to avoid these issues with SDS, MS or any of the other other systems you must do a single TB plenum type intake and use a cam(s) with less duration.
Jake messed with a system called Kit Carson (sp?) back in early 2000 they abandoned it and I believe the issues they were having was to do with ITB/vacuum. Jake then went with SDS largely because of my success on a single plenum application, but he to ran into ITB/vacuum issues.

You look at Porsche and all other manufactures, once they went with EFI all their systems have a single TB plenum intake and cams with less duration. This have everything to do with the poor vacuum signal and the mandate to have a smooth performance curve.

Why I take issue with Rob knocking SDS is he has no experience with PEFI other than one engine that was misconfigured to his expectations. It doesn't matter what system whether it be MS running "alpha-N" or SDS "TPS only" he would have ran into the same issue.
He never tried TPS only, in fact he refused the suggestion and he never did MS, he just gave up and sold the engine.

MS has the exact same issue, do a google search using keywords "megasquirt","ITB", "vacuum", "apha-N", "TPS only", "cam duration" and you will see this is not just an SDS issue. Go over to the Pelican parts forum and you will find most MS ITB hot cam application they have to resort to alpha-N (TPS only) programming.
This is the point I was trying to get across, it's not just SDS that has this issue, all systems do.

I ran SDS with a basicly stock D-jet single TB/plenum intake, 2.0 D-jet injectors, on both a stock 1.8 and a 2.0 with a mild scat C-25 cam, both engine ran flawlessly with none of the ITB/vacuum issues affecting the MAP sensor. Nothing spectacular as FI doesn't add HP, but you couldn't tell the difference between L-jet, D-jet or the SDS. The 2.0 I ran for about 4 years with the programer never installed after initial tuning. It behaved no differently than a stock FI system.
I have installed several systems in customers cars this way, with similar stockish engines and all have performed flawlessly.

Does the Holley have an edge on this issue?
My educated guess is no, thier test beds are LS engines that have a single TB/plenum and engines using a V8 carb manifold which is a lot like a plenum. I would go over to V8/FI forums and see if they have the same ITB/vacuum issues with aftermarket FI, my bet is they do.

[ottox914]

My 2056 running SDS, big itb’s, a fairly large cam, on MPS. Yup, mps. My friend and tuner was dead set that with time and patience we’d get this done. The couple auto x events the car has been to it has demonstrated great TQ and throttle response. So SDS, while not having the range of options of others, still is a player in my opinion.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...99440&st=20

I have been tempted to play around with the tps tuning, but it is running great and just so much fun now... maybe this fall or next spring.

[Mark Henry]

Big lift isn't a problem, large duration and overlap is the issue with any EFI system.
Do you remember what cam you're running?

[ConeDodger]

I saw the Holley system at the Big Boy Toy Store at Hot August Nights yesterday. In the display, there was nothing but mock V8 setups. I asked if the system could be used on a Porsche 6 or Type IV? For a moment, the looked at me like I was a bug on a cake at his picnic then recovered quickly and said basically “sure.” Which I took to mean buy it and try it...

[ottox914]

Big lift isn't a problem, large duration and overlap is the issue with any EFI system.
Do you remember what cam you're running?

Intake: lift, .500, duration, 276, duration @ .050, 240. 110 lobe center
Exhaust: lift, .500, duration, 284, duration @ .050, 249. 110 lobe center

I don’t think the duration is that wild, but much more than stock.

What say you, Mark?

[Mark Henry]

Big lift isn't a problem, large duration and overlap is the issue with any EFI system.
Do you remember what cam you're running?

Intake: lift, .500, duration, 276, duration @ .050, 240. 110 lobe center
Exhaust: lift, .500, duration, 284, duration @ .050, 249. 110 lobe center

I don’t think the duration is that wild, but much more than stock.

What say you, Mark?

Yes that has less duration than my cam by about 20 degrees @ .050
That would improve your vacuum signal to the MPS.

Is that a WEB 119?
David could you please copy down all your values plus engine specs and send them to me? No rush, but I'd like to add them to my list. You should always have a copy for yourself as well.
Just a FYI if you wanted you can get SDS to upgrade your system to EM-5 spec with full PC data logging for $590. You also would need the values copied down for this.

This is the point I'm trying to get across, blaming a system for a build with incompatible components, in Rob's case likely a way too aggressive carb cam and his only single experience with SDS (or any other system), is in no way a fair unbiased comparison.
Much akin to saying a 914 is underpowered terrible handling POS, when all you've ever driven was one poor condition rusted out 1.7 with a beat engine.

[ConeDodger]

For the record, I have never met Mark Henry. I have never had a conversation with him. He was not present during any of my conversations with Jake Raby. Jake knew exactly what my intentions were before I built either of the Raby Kit motors. Therefore neither motor had an “aggressive carb cam.” I didn’t “give up” and sell the motor, and go to the six cylinder. Going to the six was always the plan from the start. From the day I got the car, that was always the plan. After getting the second engine running and tuned, I put it up for sale. It was for sale for almost a year before it sold and during that time, I drove the car and tuned the car. I have a group of friends here in Reno Tahoe who also went through an SDS system. They all moved on as it isn’t nearly sophisticated enough for their/our needs. Before he gets to attacking their abilities, two are techs at a Toyota dealership, one is a mechanical engineer. One was the owner of Motorsport’s Dynamics in Sacramento. His opinion? He called it “too simple. Not much better than carbs.” Which it is. He builds 700HP drift motors for factory teams. I’ll go with his opinion over yours.
Before buying the SDS system, I had a long conversation with someone who I believe said his name was Ross. He knew that I intended to use itb’s, he knew that my intention was 60% street, 30% track day, and 10% autocross. He never expressed any reservations about my plan until, I said I was having MPS tuning problems. Then, it was the itb’s and I should possibly try TP tuning. Not why I paid over a grand for the system. I could have stayed with my Dellortos.
As far as trying to invalidate my experience, I’m pretty darned educated, I can figure it out, after all, if a mechanic can get it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Mark Henry]

Well my edumacaton is a lot higher than you think. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tooth.gif)

The issues with wild cams, ITB's, poor, vacuum, are right on the SDS FAQ page. Likely Ross assumed you would be OK running a TPS only system as most racers do.
I don't think I've built a 700hp engine, but I've built an almost 600hp 930.

BTW yes the speeling mistakes was on porpus, ah-ha yep...you kno... stupid Canadian...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Chris914n6]

I'm glad SDS has been working for you, but it's dated and overpriced compared to everything that's come out the past couple years. ECUMaster black, MS3pro, and AEM Infinity particularly. ECUMaster black has built in wideband O2, CAN, and autotune for $1099.

[Mark Henry]

I'm glad SDS has been working for you, but it's dated and overpriced compared to everything that's come out the past couple years. ECUMaster black, MS3pro, and AEM Infinity particularly. ECUMaster black has built in wideband O2, CAN, and autotune for $1099.

SDS has had built in wideband reading for severial years...you need a sensor and controller, gauge is optional.

I've never said SDS is the best, what it is the best at is for the backyard wrench with little to no EFI experience, limited programming skills, who just wants a system that works, easy to install, easy to tune, can be tuned without dyno time and doesn't need options like auto-fallatio.

I have a customer/friend who has a 930, he was running SDS which took him no time to install and tune, no dyno except for HP pulls.
This year hes been installing MS3 and meth injection, he's nine months in and 20+ hours dyno tune time, better idle, better mileage, but so far the SDS had better grunt. 435hp so far, he was over 500hp same dyno with SDS and without meth.
9 months and he's still working on finding the missing HP, more dyno time scheduled.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Chris914n6]

I'm glad SDS has been working for you, but it's dated and overpriced compared to everything that's come out the past couple years. ECUMaster black, MS3pro, and AEM Infinity particularly. ECUMaster black has built in wideband O2 CONTROLLER, CAN, and autotune for $1099.

SDS has had built in wideband reading for severial years...you need a sensor and controller, gauge is optional.

I've never said SDS is the best, what it is the best at is for the backyard wrench with little to no EFI experience, limited programming skills, who just wants a system that works, easy to install, easy to tune, can be tuned without dyno time and doesn't need options like auto-fallatio.

I have a customer/friend who has a 930, he was running SDS which took him no time to install and tune, no dyno except for HP pulls.
This year hes been installing MS3 and meth injection, he's nine months in and 20+ hours dyno tune time, better idle, better mileage, but so far the SDS had better grunt. 435hp so far, he was over 500hp same dyno with SDS and without meth.
9 months and he's still working on finding the missing HP, more dyno time scheduled.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Obviously his problem is from doing meth (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

The 3 I mentioned are being used on 1000hp Supras.....

I disagree that SDS is the simplest anymore and at $1800 comparable isn't a good deal. ProEFI does way more at that price point.
Autotune is plug in a few parameters, drive for 5 and done. What's simpler than that?

[horizontally-opposed]

ECUMaster black, MS3pro, and AEM Infinity particularly. ECUMaster black has built in wideband O2, CAN, and autotune for $1099.

Quite interesting....

For my 2.2E/S, something like this or MFI (too bad about the mortgage one needs with it) are quite interesting...

[Mark Henry]

ECUMaster black, MS3pro, and AEM Infinity particularly. ECUMaster black has built in wideband O2, CAN, and autotune for $1099.

Quite interesting....

For my 2.2E/S, something like this or MFI (too bad about the mortgage one needs with it) are quite interesting...

Personally I'd go over to Pelican, look for a same spec engine project with a system you like, then ask them for their values maps. That would be the easiest and fastest way to do it with minimal dyno time. Likely this would save you most headaches, time and money.

I wouldn't do the Holley just because you will be in uncharted waters when it came to programming/trouble shooting for that engine application.