Show me your roll cage to suspension tower bracing, ..and other bracing/stiffening you've done Options

[naro914]

That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal

The diagonal is fine, but without a horizontal crossbar it is not approved for wheel to wheel racing.

This is how the cage has always been in our car
I’ve run multiple SCCA club races like this.

[Chi-town]

Then the Tech inspector wasn't doing his job.

Were these club events wheel to wheel or Solo?

I don't see a dash bar and those door bars don't look legal either.

[naro914]

Then the Tech inspector wasn't doing his job.

Were these club events wheel to wheel or Solo?

I don't see a dash bar and those door bars don't look legal either.

this is a race car, not a solo car....5 years of racing. many different tech inspectors. Won GT2 class and Big Bore group multiple times. Regional and Majors club races.
Never a question.

[Heater Guy]

That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal

The diagonal is fine, but without a horizontal crossbar it is not approved for wheel to wheel racing.

This is how the cage has always been in our car
I’ve run multiple SCCA club races like this.

Depending on class, for years a dash bar wasn't required by SCCA. Some may have been Grandfathered in. This is SCCA General Competition Rules from 2008. See pdf attached.






 Roll_Cage.pdf ( 2.26mb ) Number of downloads: 88

[Heater Guy]

That’s what my cage crossbar is like and it’s legal

The diagonal is fine, but without a horizontal crossbar it is not approved for wheel to wheel racing.

This is how the cage has always been in our car
I’ve run multiple SCCA club races like this.

Depending on class, for years a dash bar wasn't required by SCCA. Some may have been Grandfathered in. This is SCCA General Competition Rules from 2008. See pdf attached.

The attached pdf is from the current SCCA GCR. A dash bar is recommended.








 Roll_Cage.pdf ( 2.26mb ) Number of downloads: 88

 Roll_Cage.pdf ( 191.21k ) Number of downloads: 85

[naro914]

Recommended, not required.
We can’t put a knee bar on anyway. Nadine drives all the way forward and her legs already almost touch the dash bottom. Knee bar would be impossible...and dangerous.

[campbellcj]

Recommended, not required.
We can’t put a knee bar on anyway. Nadine drives all the way forward and her legs already almost touch the dash bottom. Knee bar would be impossible...and dangerous.

Not necessarily, if moved forward enough. Mine is well forward 'under' the dash not in-front like most you see.

[brant]

agreed with Chris

knee bars go inside the dash and as high up as the steering column

[Brett W]

Yup, you need a better fabricator. Proper dash bar goes no where near sensitive body parts.

Since you have GT type car, I might even be tempted to "remove" the targa bar, put the main hoop back in the middle of the targa bar and then reinstall the skin of the targa bar around the cage. Pretty time consuming, but it would be really slick moving the main hoop back another 3-4in to help re-position the driver.

[stownsen914]

Definitely want a dash bar and a horizontal bar across middle or bottom of the roll hoop too. Otherwise you risk having the cage fold in on you in the event of a hard side hit.

[naro914]

OK then, can someone show pictures of their knee bars? Right now, Nadine's knees/shins pretty much touch the bottom of the dash without a bar and no lower dash pad. (in Huey with the lower dash pad, she touches the lower dash pad). if its back too far, you lose access to reaching under the dash to mount things don't you?

I guess I just can't visualize how to put this in without it being really in the way and making it dangerous. We've had this same style roll cage in the car for over 20 years, raced in multiple series...never a problem.

[Jetsetsurfshop]

My knee bar is almost touching the lower part of the dash and that's after I removed the lower dash pad. On top of that NASA made me add padding to it. The only thing I could do in my car to raise it would be remote the factory dash, raise that bar, and fabricate a new dash.
I have had quite a few drivers in my car with no problems. Is you A pillar bar as far forward as it could be?

[ChrisFoley]

Forward hoops which penetrate the stock dash are generally necessary to get the "knee bar" in a safe location.
A bar which is bent at both ends to make it closer to the front bulkhead is perfectly legal and makes the cage much sturdier than one with no dash bar.

This dash bar will not be anywhere near the drivers knees. However it may interfere with some gauge packages.

[brant]

Ours:

[Brett W]

Sounds like your seat is pushed too far forward or something. You were running stock type floor mount pedals in Papa Smurf weren't you?

I don't remember Nadine being excessively tall. Any pics of your or Nadine sitting in the car? (preferably shot through an open door.)

[naro914]

Nadine sits with the seat as far forward as she can get it, and up as high as she can go (we put additional bottom and back pads in for her) so she can reach the pedals comfortably. I sit with the seat all the way back and no extra pad so my head doesn't hit the roof.
If she's even back one click on the slider, she can't push the clutch pedal in far enough. she has very small feet and shorter legs.

its not like we just started driving...been driving this car for 25 years now.

[brant]

Definitely want a horizontal bar across middle or bottom of the roll hoop too. Otherwise you risk having the cage fold in on you in the event of a hard side hit.

if you modify the cage I would agree with this as another very important addition

If the car is hit (Tboned) at the factory jack point
the long will crush and move inward

As the car is crushed inward, the seat belts will tighten and crush the occupant

914's are notoriously weak in this side impact... and I have seen longitudinals move 12 inches inward... pushing the floor pan 12 inches... pushing the seat mounted to the floor pan 12 inches... and causing any seat belts to squeeze the occupant about 12 inches tighter than they were adjusted to

also with the factory brace bar cut out of the floor pan
(forward seat adjusting mount from the factory)
The vehicle and floorboard are even more susceptible in a side impact
you may want to add that factory cross brace back in. its a safety item

[Jetsetsurfshop]

My knee bar, from Tangerine.

[Brett W]

Too low, Nadine is now an amputee. That design won't work.

If you are building a race car, might as well toss the stock dash and fabricate what you need. Its your car, it should fit you (and Nadine).

I have a design in mind for a seat like a forumula car, that is built into the cockpit. Do that, it gets you down low and you carry custom molded seat inserts for each driver. It looks pretty unconventional, but it could be awesome.

[GregAmy]

Good morning! Just catching this thread, wanted to follow up. I am a Nationally-licensed SCCA scrutineer and a racer.

First, what the regs were when the car was built*, or what someone may have approved in the past, is not relevant. You have to meet current GCR regs to run in SCCA Club Racing. The GCR is constantly updated and can be found here:

https://www.scca.com/pages/cars-and-rules

Rollcage regs have been fairly consistent over the last decade or so; major changes in recent years include:

- Requirement for full-width main hoop bar (mid-90s, due to a cage collapse on an SSB car)
- Requirement for two door bars on drivers side (wreck circa 1999)
- Requirements for two door bars both sides (another wreck, around 2004)

Cage tubing sizes have changed over the years based on design requirements changes; anyone that compares this years book to, say, 1999 will find thicker tubing yet fewer weight brackets.

Now, there are some design elements of the rollcage that can be grandfathered in for cars that have been previously logbooked*, but generally there is a minimum-required safety standard that all cars have to meet, regardless of initial logbook issuance.

This car's requirements fall under GCR 9.4, "ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS", page GCR 86 in the December PDF. Further, since it has the full windshield, it cannot take advantage of the "asymmetric" hoop design. Is the car going to be run with the targa top? Then it's considered an enclosed car. Without the Targa is "open top" regs.

Per the discussions above, GCR 9.4.B.2.a clearly states, "Main hoops shall incorporate a diagonal brace", which this one has.

However, GCR 9.4.B.2.b also clearly states, "Cars must incorporate a main hoop horizontal brace at the approximate level of the driver’s shoulders but not lower than the shoulder belt mounting point as described in section 9.3."

This car does not have that required horizontal brace.

GCR 9.4.C.1.c clearly states, "All open cars with a high front hoop and all closed cars except those competing in the T4, Improved Touring, Spec Miata, and B-Spec classes must incorporate a horizontal front hoop brace at the approximate level of the dashboard."

This car does not yet have that required horizontal brace.

I don't recall reading what the weight of your car is, but I'm assuming you'll fit into the 1701-2699 pound bracket. That requires 1.50x.095 or 1.625x.0080 minimum DOM mild steel. I do NOT recommend chromoly, simply because none of us generally have the ability to properly heat treat welded chromoly tubing. Stick with DOM mild steel.

It's all fine and good that someone has signed off the car, and that you have not had any grief from anyone in subsequent annual inspections and events. When I'm initially inspecting a car and issuing a logbook, I'm quite careful and detailed and ensure everything is up to spec. However, I'll freely admit that when doing subsequent annual inspections I'm less careful, trusting prior scrutineers' inspections. So it's certainly probable that this has slipped through some scrutineers' eyes. Or, we've taken it for granted that since the car has been racing for seemingly forever the design must be fine.

But just because it's been that way forever doesn't mean it meets the current regs. Maybe the regs have changed since it was initially inspected?

Bottom line, based on very little info in this thread, I do not believe the current design meets the current SCCA GCR requirements. And while you've been perfectly fine racing it that way, you run the risk of someone casually looking inside and thinking, "hey, that's not right" and they pull you off the track for not meeting minimum safety requirements. Believe me, I've done it (stick your finger around the top of some production-car-based rollcages and you may find incomplete welds (yeah, I couldn't get up there), poor welding quality (well the last guy passed it!) and I've even seen people using JB Weld or body putty to make really bad welds look good.

If I see that, I won't allow you on the track. I can't, it's not right.

Finally, I read some comments above about this cage being built to FIA specs. That's a great start! However note that unless the cage is actually "FIA Certified" for its application, it is still required to meet SCCA minimum design requirements. And, if the cage actually is "FIA Certified" then the inspector needs to have that paperwork to use as a basis for issuing the logbook, and once issued that cage cannot be subsequently modified. So I don't think we're looking at any kind of FIA certification that applies here.

Download the GCR, it's free. These are the minimum standards that have to be met. Always print it out and bring it to your cage builder, ensure he/she reads and understands it, and asks you if they have any questions.

*Now, THAT ALL SAID...there exists in the GCR Appendix I which exists for cars logbooked prior to 2008 (what's the initial date of your first SCCA logbook issued?) At the time of writing, "GT" cars were considered to be those of tubeframe construction, so I suggest yours would use the Production regs.

It's not a group of regs that I encourage anyone to use; after all, the latest rollcage regs have all been written in someone's blood, and these Appendix I allowance were a nod to old cars that may show up once in a while.

Despite this, within Appendix I the horizontal bracing is not explicitly called out, and the accompanying drawings indicate that the horizontal bar is "recommended."

"It is recommended that the vertical bars of the front hoop be connected by a horizontal bar at a point above the driver’s legs."

I also point out that Appendix I states, "Specific installations are subject to approval by the Technical and Safety Inspectors at each event." So you're still maintain some risk of being excluded. Better keep a copy of the GCR with you and be prepared to plead your case.

If your car has its initial logbook prior to 2008, you may choose to use a cage to either specs. However, note Appendix I was intended to grandfather legacy cars that were already built, ones that were not expected to be updated for competition. As such, the logbook goes with the cage, kinda like how the engine number goes with the chassis. If you replace and/or recreate that cage, you lose that logbook and must build your new cage to the latest requirements. Though, it's quite likely you can find a buddy locally to wink, wink, nod, nod re-stamp your new cage with the old number and pretend it's the original cage. That's up to your conscience, no one else will know except you two...

I've been doing this for a while, long enough to know exactly who these regs were written from. For example, Jay Wright at the 1993(?) Runoffs was the impetus for the horizontal bar. We used to only install a half-width horizontal bar, from the driver's side to the diagonal, to keep the seat from moving backwards in a crash and allowing the driver's head to hit the diagonal element. We also used it for shoulder harness attachments. That's what was in Jay's SSB car when it hit the tire wall along the Road Atlanta front straight coming out of Turn 12. The car went airborne and landed on the roof. The diagonal along with the horizontal half-element moved out of the plane of the main hoop, allowing the main hoop to collapse sideways and the roof came "down" on Jay's head, making him a paraplegic until the day he died. He lived a good life, and did a lot of good things for racing (technical recommendations, scrutineering, developing an affordable H&NR, the Wright Device; he was actually a NASA rocket scientist) before eventually succumbing to complications from his injuries.

As a result, we began requiring the horizontal to go all the way across and we added a diagonal within the rear hoop bracings.

Bottom line, do you want to be out there among big-bore fast cars with a outdated cage? Again, your call. After all, in the end it's your ass on the line, not mine. I sign off on your max-built cage and then you wreck your car, I go to the worker party and have some beer. I sign off your minimum-built cage and you wreck your car, I still go to the worker party and have some beer. But we'll hoist one in your honor.

I know this was a windy, heady, "harsh my mellow" post, and I apologize for those bored with it. But I do encourage well-built safety systems that exceed the minimum requirements.

Greg