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> New 914 owner! Already dreaming of engine swaps..., What would you guys think about a 4A-GE blacktop in a 914?
betz
post Nov 8 2018, 02:17 AM
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QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 7 2018, 02:53 PM) *



A 16v 4AGE with ITB's sounds exactly the same as a BT 20v with ITB's, I've built both. The 5 valve per cylinder sounds cool until you realize almost all of them need valve guides and sometimes valves (very common issue). If I knew how much of a pain the BT swap was I would have built another 16v and saved myself some cash and made more power.

The blacktop is not without it's own tuning issues. They have a capacitor issue in the ECUs which is becoming more common as even the newest blacktop is already 18 years old and most of them are crazy high mileage (DON'T believe any JDM importer that says 30-60k miles!!). Oh and don't forget the wiring issues (stay away from Tweak'd, his $480 harness was junk)

You can buy a K20 for about the same amount as a BT 20v and have motor that will run like a swiss clock right off the crate and make more HP stock (and WAY more torque!) than a BT 20v does heavily modded.

You also have a huge community to look to to get good prices on used parts (like ITBs) and technical support. You also can get service parts at any parts store in the US. You won't be stuck dealing with the price gouging and vultures over on Club4ag.


As I've learned over so many years in the aftermarket, everyone wants something different so you do you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)


You know.. I think you're right. You clearly have more experience with these motors than I do, and I definitely value the ability to get parts quickly and affordably. And I mean.. it's not like a K motor in a 914 isn't unique enough. And there's no way I couldn't make that thing a screamer!

If I'm honest I was never thrilled with all that work for 160hp and the K20 still doesnt make enough torque stock to break the transmission. It really does have a lot going for it.

I also like that idea of a 5 cylinder with a Boxster trans. No adapter plate- just swapping flanges? I might look into that.
At this rate I'll be buying more Boxster parts for the 914 than for the Boxster lol. Let's see.. shift cables, radiators, transmission..
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Andyrew
post Nov 8 2018, 10:56 AM
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I have a lot of thoughts on this subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bang for the big buck, easy, fast, reliable.
LS motor with Boxster S trans.

Easy bang for the buck. Fits right and sounds right
Subaru 6 with Subaru trans.

Turbo bang for the buck.
Subaru turbo with Subaru trans.


Those are all very conventional and fantastic swaps.

Below are unconventional swaps.

Honda v6. 901 trans.
CHEAP, stupid reliable. I foresee this gaining popularity shortly.

VW/Audi motor with Boxster trans.
LOTS of fun and unconventional options here. You have to decide your goals for the car. Wiring is probably the most difficult part. I'm a self proclaimed expert on Audi motors and my favorite choices are as follows. With the fact that they we're all designed for similar bolt patterns on the transmission, the starter, and clutch assembly are all factory supported so it's much simpler. No adapter plates required, no mental mind games.


See below for my thoughts on the VW/Audi motors

V8 - ~300-350hp (plenty) good torque, high rev limit, exotic sound. Not enough torque to cause problems with some of the cheaper transmissions.

20v turbo 4. - cheap and reliable motor that has big support for big power depending on how much you spend. 200-900hp

VR6 motor - same as above, but heavier. Many people turbo these for up to 4 digit numbers. As a bonus Porsche put these motors in the Cayenne so you can claim it's a Porsche motor if you get the right block.

20v turbo 5 - see 20v turbo 4. But more low end torque, more potential, and a longer engine. (Space becomes tight at this point)


Something I'd like to do is a K20 with Honda trans. BIG turbo and all cheap Honda parts. Try for 500whp swap for less than 5k.




I think if I tackle another car it's going to be either a really simple swap like Subaru 6 or Honda. Or a Audi V8 simply for the sound.
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Andyrew
post Nov 8 2018, 10:59 AM
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QUOTE(betz @ Nov 8 2018, 12:17 AM) *

QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 7 2018, 02:53 PM) *



A 16v 4AGE with ITB's sounds exactly the same as a BT 20v with ITB's, I've built both. The 5 valve per cylinder sounds cool until you realize almost all of them need valve guides and sometimes valves (very common issue). If I knew how much of a pain the BT swap was I would have built another 16v and saved myself some cash and made more power.

The blacktop is not without it's own tuning issues. They have a capacitor issue in the ECUs which is becoming more common as even the newest blacktop is already 18 years old and most of them are crazy high mileage (DON'T believe any JDM importer that says 30-60k miles!!). Oh and don't forget the wiring issues (stay away from Tweak'd, his $480 harness was junk)

You can buy a K20 for about the same amount as a BT 20v and have motor that will run like a swiss clock right off the crate and make more HP stock (and WAY more torque!) than a BT 20v does heavily modded.

You also have a huge community to look to to get good prices on used parts (like ITBs) and technical support. You also can get service parts at any parts store in the US. You won't be stuck dealing with the price gouging and vultures over on Club4ag.


As I've learned over so many years in the aftermarket, everyone wants something different so you do you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)


You know.. I think you're right. You clearly have more experience with these motors than I do, and I definitely value the ability to get parts quickly and affordably. And I mean.. it's not like a K motor in a 914 isn't unique enough. And there's no way I couldn't make that thing a screamer!

If I'm honest I was never thrilled with all that work for 160hp and the K20 still doesnt make enough torque stock to break the transmission. It really does have a lot going for it.

I also like that idea of a 5 cylinder with a Boxster trans. No adapter plate- just swapping flanges? I might look into that.
At this rate I'll be buying more Boxster parts for the 914 than for the Boxster lol. Let's see.. shift cables, radiators, transmission..


No boxster radiators.. they won't fit well. Toyota Celica is the one you want. The aluminum rad on eBay is good for up to a big v6. Possibly enough for a small V8. (Sub 5L)
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mgp4591
post Nov 8 2018, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 8 2018, 10:56 AM) *

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bang for the big buck, easy, fast, reliable.
LS motor with Boxster S trans.

Easy bang for the buck. Fits right and sounds right
Subaru 6 with Subaru trans.

Turbo bang for the buck.
Subaru turbo with Subaru trans.


Those are all very conventional and fantastic swaps.

Below are unconventional swaps.

Honda v6. 901 trans.
CHEAP, stupid reliable. I foresee this gaining popularity shortly.

VW/Audi motor with Boxster trans.
LOTS of fun and unconventional options here. You have to decide your goals for the car. Wiring is probably the most difficult part. I'm a self proclaimed expert on Audi motors and my favorite choices are as follows. With the fact that they we're all designed for similar bolt patterns on the transmission, the starter, and clutch assembly are all factory supported so it's much simpler. No adapter plates required, no mental mind games.


See below for my thoughts on the VW/Audi motors

V8 - ~300-350hp (plenty) good torque, high rev limit, exotic sound. Not enough torque to cause problems with some of the cheaper transmissions.

20v turbo 4. - cheap and reliable motor that has big support for big power depending on how much you spend. 200-900hp

VR6 motor - same as above, but heavier. Many people turbo these for up to 4 digit numbers. As a bonus Porsche put these motors in the Cayenne so you can claim it's a Porsche motor if you get the right block.

20v turbo 5 - see 20v turbo 4. But more low end torque, more potential, and a longer engine. (Space becomes tight at this point)


Something I'd like to do is a K20 with Honda trans. BIG turbo and all cheap Honda parts. Try for 500whp swap for less than 5k.




I think if I tackle another car it's going to be either a really simple swap like Subaru 6 or Honda. Or a Audi V8 simply for the sound.

I thought about the Honda engine and trans swap - the biggest drawback is the width you're dealing with running it transversely. I did some measuring while I worked at Honda and there'd be some interesting modifications to make it fit right and line up the axles. The V6 seemed too tall with it fit to the Honda 5 spd and to me it seemed like wayy too much work. But if someone put in the time to modify everything that was needed, you'd have a great weight setup and a sweet package because it's all designed to work together already. ECU and all... tempting for sure.
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Chris H.
post Nov 8 2018, 02:13 PM
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Yes the K series is a very strong, cheap, plentiful motor. I have a K24 in my 2006 Acura that still runs like new. I'm half tempted to put a k20 in my Vanagon. Even the non-vtec 2.0 is ~130ish HP. Can be had for like $500.
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Rand
post Nov 8 2018, 02:17 PM
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This subject has been beaten to death. Are you expecting a different answer? For me, after all these years, it's really simple. Go LS for the aluminum v8, or go flat with Porsche 6 or Subaru 4 to keep the boxer. Why would you go any other way? If you want to go Audi, we have a couple of experts here, but they have all fought technical issues and may not still be on the road as a reliable driver.
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betz
post Nov 8 2018, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE(Rand @ Nov 8 2018, 12:17 PM) *

This subject has been beaten to death. Are you expecting a different answer? For me, after all these years, it's really simple. Go LS for the aluminum v8, or go flat with Porsche 6 or Subaru 4 to keep the boxer. Why would you go any other way? If you want to go Audi, we have a couple of experts here, but they have all fought technical issues and may not still be on the road as a reliable driver.


Is it a crime to want a lightweight high revving motor for my lightweight mid engined sports car? There's really not that much out there with this concept, even though it should be a pretty natural combination.

The Subaru motor I acknowledge will be a much easier swap. It's my primary fall back option, since I don't want to drop $10k on a 100 hp 911 motor and I'd rather just sell my 914 and buy a corvette than to put an LS in my 914.

Even then, my subaru has historically been the most problematic of all my cars. And I really don't need that much power in my 914. I always feel like my outback is going to blow up when I gas it. Conversely, the favorite thing about my Boxster is how in it's element it feels (and sounds) when you're pedal to the metal. I know the K motor will be able to handle pretty much as much abuse as I'll be able to give it.

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Andyrew
post Nov 8 2018, 05:12 PM
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Lots of 914 guys around you... Why dont you go for a ride in a few different cars? I'll have mine on the road in a couple months and your welcome to feel a laggy 500hp big turbo 4 motor. Mueller should be getting his on the road shortly after he finishes his small to do list (BUILD DAY?????) and thats a Honda v6 motor..


Honestly I wouldnt bother putting any motor in a 914 that didnt at least have 200hp that wasnt a type 4 or 911 motor...

100hp feels pretty slow. 140hp feels quick, 180hp feels Plenty quick. But that 200hp mark is where things really start to get FUN. Below that just about any modern car on the street will be faster..
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Andyrew
post Nov 8 2018, 05:31 PM
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DP
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Dave_Darling
post Nov 8 2018, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE(mgp4591 @ Nov 8 2018, 11:28 AM) *

I thought about the Honda engine and trans swap - the biggest drawback is the width you're dealing with running it transversely.


The Honda V6 swaps mentioned above have used the stock 914 transmission, I believe.

BTW, I am a firm believer that the 914 is an immense amount of fun with less than 100 HP; I take issue with the thought that "200 HP is where the fun starts". If you drive it right, you can have fun with two-digit power levels.

Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD
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Andyrew
post Nov 8 2018, 05:39 PM
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QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 8 2018, 03:35 PM) *

QUOTE(mgp4591 @ Nov 8 2018, 11:28 AM) *

I thought about the Honda engine and trans swap - the biggest drawback is the width you're dealing with running it transversely.


The Honda V6 swaps mentioned above have used the stock 914 transmission, I believe.

BTW, I am a firm believer that the 914 is an immense amount of fun with less than 100 HP; I take issue with the thought that "200 HP is where the fun starts". If you drive it right, you can have fun with two-digit power levels.

Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD


Dave,

My point is I think below the 200hp territory, the best motor for the job is the type 4 motor.
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betz
post Nov 8 2018, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 8 2018, 03:12 PM) *

Lots of 914 guys around you... Why dont you go for a ride in a few different cars? I'll have mine on the road in a couple months and your welcome to feel a laggy 500hp big turbo 4 motor. Mueller should be getting his on the road shortly after he finishes his small to do list (BUILD DAY?????) and thats a Honda v6 motor..


Honestly I wouldnt bother putting any motor in a 914 that didnt at least have 200hp that wasnt a type 4 or 911 motor...

100hp feels pretty slow. 140hp feels quick, 180hp feels Plenty quick. But that 200hp mark is where things really start to get FUN. Below that just about any modern car on the street will be faster..


I would absolutely love to check out some other 914's!
Don't get me wrong, I will be powing around in that type 4 for some time before I get down into a swap. I have not done all my research on built type 4's, but it seems like everyone recommends that Jake Raby kit which is like $9k. I get that it's an all in one kit, but seriously? That's some serious dough.

As far as horsepower goes, I don't know if I totally agree even when talking swaps. I much more heavily consider the character and feeling the motor gives you over pretty much anything else. I'm not going to race it, at least not for serious competition. It's entirely for fun. That's why the 4AGE sounded better to me than a K series. Shoot I almost want to put a Busso V6 in the thing. But obviously I have to consider having an actual realizable goal.

QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Nov 8 2018, 03:35 PM) *


Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD


I will definitely keep this in mind. Yet another reason I should choose a domestic motor. So I can go down to a local dismantler and take a bunch of measurements before I make any rash decisions.

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Rand
post Nov 8 2018, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE(betz @ Nov 8 2018, 02:24 PM) *

QUOTE(Rand @ Nov 8 2018, 12:17 PM) *

This subject has been beaten to death. Are you expecting a different answer? For me, after all these years, it's really simple. Go LS for the aluminum v8, or go flat with Porsche 6 or Subaru 4 to keep the boxer. Why would you go any other way? If you want to go Audi, we have a couple of experts here, but they have all fought technical issues and may not still be on the road as a reliable driver.


Is it a crime to want a lightweight high revving motor for my lightweight mid engined sports car? There's really not that much out there with this concept, even though it should be a pretty natural combination.

The Subaru motor I acknowledge will be a much easier swap. It's my primary fall back option, since I don't want to drop $10k on a 100 hp 911 motor and I'd rather just sell my 914 and buy a corvette than to put an LS in my 914.

Even then, my subaru has historically been the most problematic of all my cars. And I really don't need that much power in my 914. I always feel like my outback is going to blow up when I gas it. Conversely, the favorite thing about my Boxster is how in it's element it feels (and sounds) when you're pedal to the metal. I know the K motor will be able to handle pretty much as much abuse as I'll be able to give it.

I'm glad you understand the costs. $10k on a 100hp 911 motor? Not my style for sure. 500hp in a motor that weighs about the same as a Porsche 6 but costs half as much? Easy call if you want grunt. And don't compare a Corvette to a 914 with an LS engine, lol.

I respect whatever you want to do. Just as a personal preference, I would either go boxer low and flat or all aluminum v8. Weight balance is as important as engine in these cars. If you go with something more complex, it's extremely critical you know what you are doing in every way, because even experts in Audi conversions still have unresolved problems.

More important than anything is that you do what stokes you. I look forward to seeing what you do!
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betz
post Nov 9 2018, 01:35 PM
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Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa...6743361233.html

Man, that would be glorious

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Andyrew
post Nov 9 2018, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 11:35 AM) *

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa...6743361233.html

Man, that would be glorious


You were complaining the subaru being unreliable....
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betz
post Nov 9 2018, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 9 2018, 12:49 PM) *


You were complaining the subaru being unreliable....


Says the guy pushing 500hp out of his 4 cylinder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)


Not that I'm really that serious, but the Busso V6 is rarely the most problematic part of any Alfa. And it would for sure satisfy what I want out of an engine. However, I'm sure the parts are not cheap nor reasonable to get. And for swapping motors into a car not meant for it, that's probably the most valuable thing I could ask for. Good aftermarket and available parts.

It's not like they make an adapter for this thing anyways, I wouldn't know where the heck to start. But it would sure be cool..
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post Nov 9 2018, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 11:35 AM) *

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa...6743361233.html
Man, that would be glorious


Tell ya what, if you want to waste money like that just fly me out to your place I'll kick you in the nuts and take your money. You'll be in pain and broke and still without a car that runs , it'll feel just like owning an Alfa. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)
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Andyrew
post Nov 9 2018, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 9 2018, 01:40 PM) *

QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 11:35 AM) *

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa...6743361233.html
Man, that would be glorious


Tell ya what, if you want to waste money like that just fly me out to your place I'll kick you in the nuts and take your money. You'll be in pain and broke and still without a car that runs , it'll feel just like owning an Alfa. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)


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Andyrew
post Nov 9 2018, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE(betz @ Nov 9 2018, 01:32 PM) *

QUOTE(Andyrew @ Nov 9 2018, 12:49 PM) *


You were complaining the subaru being unreliable....


Says the guy pushing 500hp out of his 4 cylinder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)





Lets not bring my poor decisions into play (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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betz
post Nov 9 2018, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE(Chi-town @ Nov 9 2018, 01:40 PM) *


Tell ya what, if you want to waste money like that just fly me out to your place I'll kick you in the nuts and take your money. You'll be in pain and broke and still without a car that runs , it'll feel just like owning an Alfa. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) Alfa owners on suicide watch now

Looks like you're doing a Subaru H6.. is that using the Subaru trans also?



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