A little background: I have 3 cars besides the 914: A stock '00 Boxster, a restored '86 E30 BMW with a 2.8L stroker M20, and a '06 Outback XT. All manual trans.

I found this 1972 914 1.7 on craigslist for $1600 and the main selling point to me was that most of the parts were there, it just seemed to need some basic TLC to get it running. Also, its a California car and not a total rust bucket. Also hasn't appeared to be in any major accidents. After pretty much finishing my E30 I've been itching for a new project... Ideally smog exempt.


The plan for the car is to get it running with the original type 4. The PO, who only had it for a few months, said he thinks it needs a fuel pump... turns out, the fuel pump wasn't even plugged in. So OF COURSE it's not running. He got it to start briefly with just starter fluid, so I'm thinking that's pretty much it. I'm going to bring it back to stock configuration on the D-jet, change out the oil and fuel, plug in the dang fuel pump in and I pretty much expect it to start up no problem.

From there, I will get into the restoration phase. Take it down to bare metal (I believe the car was originally black, and has total crap paint job) tackle any rust, then repaint. Then get the interior/ exterior trim all sorted.

And, if I get through alll that... I will probably want to undertake a motor swap, unless I'm just in love with the type 4. I tossed a few ideas out there, but my ideal motor would be a light, high revving motor with ITB's. Since S14's are not exactly obtainable, the 20V 4A-GE blacktop is my best idea so far. KEP makes an adapter for it, plus, it doesn't make enough power to break the stock 901 trans. I am a mechanical engineer with access to a machine shop, so fabbing some engine mounts, routing cooling system etc will most likely be pretty doable.

What do you guys think? Am I in over my head?

I had to look up what a 4A-GE blacktop is, but you're definitely not in over your head. 914's have been swapped with many different motors, so an easier route would be to copy what's been done already.. but that's totally up to you.

Fix it up and drive it first is a great idea, though. You'll get tired of the T4 soon enough, but will love the handling, etc.

Good luck!

Looks like a great starting point.

Thanks for all of the welcomes! I hardly got that on r3vlimited, haha.

The 4A-GE is a Yamaha designed Toyota motor made famous by the anime initial D. It's found in the AE86 corolla and the original MR2. The blacktop is the final iteration of the motor, found in some JDM only FWD corollas from the late 90s. It's a 1.6L I4 making 160 hp. Redline is at 8300. 5 valves per cylinder. 11:1 compression. Comes stock with individual throttle bodies and runs off a MAP sensor. This makes fitting it with open air trumpets a bolt on affair. It might just be the best sounding 4 cylinder ever made- in my opinion.

I def know it would not be as easy as a subaru or V8 swap. Not the biggest fan of V8s so the subaru motor would probably be the easiest choice for me.

Anyways.. hopefully I get it running soon. I'm thinking it could be as soon as this weekend. I haven't actually attempted to start it since I got it, haha.

A blacktop is nice but parts are getting harder and harder to get. I just did one in an AE86.

I would look into a K series if you want a reliable powerplant with inexpensive parts.

Welcome!


My guess is the height of the engine might be an issue, most people use a boxer engine because it's close lawn and keeps the center of gravity down low.

Drive it for six months before you decide to do anything like a major swap

It will not be difficult to improve upon the T4. I don't believe anyone has done what you propose but as I said, it won't be difficult................

I definitely considered the K series motors. Its no doubt the more practical option.. cheaper, can make much more power, more reliable even. The only advantage the 4AGE has is size, sounding better and being a cooler swap. And that pretty much does it for me. But I'd no doubt have to get some seat time in like a Civic Si or RSX type S or something, to see if I'd like that motor.

Regardless of what you do, have fun doing it. You already know the drill as this is not your first rodeo. We will watch as you make progress. We love pictures of progress.

I did love the sound of the ITBs screaming but you can get that same sound from a K20 with ITBs.

The thing that really hurts the blacktop and silvertop swaps is the water line issue. I ran the RS Chita setup in my 86 which made life easy at the price of $400. I looked at the SQ engineering kit but it was still a bit too rough for my taste. At least you won't need to relocate the dizzy so that saves you a few $$.

If you do decide to do a BT20v let me know as I have a brand new set of performance spark plug wires I imported sitting on a shelf for it.

Welcome to the club!

Quite a few 914 owners down there in San Jose and the surrounding areas, (I use to live near Santa Teresa High school for years then Almaden Valley then off of Snell before moving to the East Bay)

No idea about that motor you want, someone has done the K-motor swap before, I tried to search for it, yet cannot find it.

Not really hurting it too much, seeing as multiple shops make kits to relocate the water lines.. Some I see are as low as $200.
Unfortunately the ITBs for a K20 cost more than an entire 4AGE engine. Some of the Honda ITB kits actually use blacktop throttles with an adapter, lol. And good sound is not guaranteed... it's likely that the blacktop partially gets it's unique sound from having 5V per cylinder. I kinda want a drop in solution where the most engine modifications I'm going to do is cams and a valve job. Sure I can get the K motor up to 300 hp at the wheels, all motor. But at that point, I'm breaking my transmission if I use first gear. And in it a lot more $$.

Another thing, is that the toughest part of my E30 build was not swapping the motor, but getting the thing tuned right. I went through 3 sets of injectors, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, wideband O2 sensor, a bunch of crappy AFMs and 3 different tunes. It's still not 100% perfect, idle is a little wonky sometimes (probably because of the cam) and sometimes at WOT it will hesitate. I'll probably do a megasquirt with it eventually, but that's $$ plus dyno time which means more $$$. I imagine I'll have my hands full with just the swap for my 914- I'd like modifications to the motor to be another project.. but in the distant future.



That's good to hear! I've already met some friendly 914 folk in the area buying some parts on craigslist. I got an engine cover in the exact crappy faded repaint red and a rebuilt side shift trans with custom linkages. The shifter in this car is the absolute worst I've ever felt, I literally got the trans the day after I bought it lmao. I was like... where are the gears? Then I realized the entirety of the movement in the shifter was slop. I was almost impressed.

"The plan for the car is to get it running with the original type 4. The PO, who only had it for a few months, said he thinks it needs a fuel pump... turns out, the fuel pump wasn't even plugged in. So OF COURSE it's not running. He got it to start briefly with just starter fluid, so I'm thinking that's pretty much it. I'm going to bring it back to stock configuration on the D-jet, change out the oil and fuel, plug in the dang fuel pump in and I pretty much expect it to start up no problem.

From there, I will get into the restoration phase. Take it down to bare metal (I believe the car was originally black, and has total crap paint job) tackle any rust, then repaint. Then get the interior/ exterior trim all sorted. "


Do this. That's enough....you've got other cars, but you asked. Change the tailshift to a side shift and be done.


and

Hello from San Jose. I just finished up my WRX swap, feel free to ping me with any questions. You're welcome to come by and check out my build too, Im in the Cambrian area.

It sounds like you're pretty set on a BT 20 so I'll leave you with this:

A 16v 4AGE with ITB's sounds exactly the same as a BT 20v with ITB's, I've built both. The 5 valve per cylinder sounds cool until you realize almost all of them need valve guides and sometimes valves (very common issue). If I knew how much of a pain the BT swap was I would have built another 16v and saved myself some cash and made more power.

Those $200 water line kits are a joke, most of them run a steel pipe right over the top of the exhaust header and right under the ITBs or worse have you grind out part of the casting in the head which creates it's own separate issues.

The blacktop is not without it's own tuning issues. They have a capacitor issue in the ECUs which is becoming more common as even the newest blacktop is already 18 years old and most of them are crazy high mileage (DON'T believe any JDM importer that says 30-60k miles!!). Oh and don't forget the wiring issues (stay away from Tweak'd, his $480 harness was junk)

You can buy a K20 for about the same amount as a BT 20v and have motor that will run like a swiss clock right off the crate and make more HP stock (and WAY more torque!) than a BT 20v does heavily modded.

You also have a huge community to look to to get good prices on used parts (like ITBs) and technical support. You also can get service parts at any parts store in the US. You won't be stuck dealing with the price gouging and vultures over on Club4ag.

For inspiration..

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=97897

As I've learned over so many years in the aftermarket, everyone wants something different so you do you

Had I not gotten such a killer deal for my Honda V6 swap, I'd go with a newer VW 2.5 liter 5 cylinder and bolt it up to a 5 speed Boxster/Passat box.

No silly adapters or custom flywheels. That motor would sound sweet with some ITB's for sure.

You know.. I think you're right. You clearly have more experience with these motors than I do, and I definitely value the ability to get parts quickly and affordably. And I mean.. it's not like a K motor in a 914 isn't unique enough. And there's no way I couldn't make that thing a screamer!

If I'm honest I was never thrilled with all that work for 160hp and the K20 still doesnt make enough torque stock to break the transmission. It really does have a lot going for it.

I also like that idea of a 5 cylinder with a Boxster trans. No adapter plate- just swapping flanges? I might look into that.
At this rate I'll be buying more Boxster parts for the 914 than for the Boxster lol. Let's see.. shift cables, radiators, transmission..

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject

Bang for the big buck, easy, fast, reliable.
LS motor with Boxster S trans.

Easy bang for the buck. Fits right and sounds right
Subaru 6 with Subaru trans.

Turbo bang for the buck.
Subaru turbo with Subaru trans.


Those are all very conventional and fantastic swaps.

Below are unconventional swaps.

Honda v6. 901 trans.
CHEAP, stupid reliable. I foresee this gaining popularity shortly.

VW/Audi motor with Boxster trans.
LOTS of fun and unconventional options here. You have to decide your goals for the car. Wiring is probably the most difficult part. I'm a self proclaimed expert on Audi motors and my favorite choices are as follows. With the fact that they we're all designed for similar bolt patterns on the transmission, the starter, and clutch assembly are all factory supported so it's much simpler. No adapter plates required, no mental mind games.


See below for my thoughts on the VW/Audi motors

V8 - ~300-350hp (plenty) good torque, high rev limit, exotic sound. Not enough torque to cause problems with some of the cheaper transmissions.

20v turbo 4. - cheap and reliable motor that has big support for big power depending on how much you spend. 200-900hp

VR6 motor - same as above, but heavier. Many people turbo these for up to 4 digit numbers. As a bonus Porsche put these motors in the Cayenne so you can claim it's a Porsche motor if you get the right block.

20v turbo 5 - see 20v turbo 4. But more low end torque, more potential, and a longer engine. (Space becomes tight at this point)


Something I'd like to do is a K20 with Honda trans. BIG turbo and all cheap Honda parts. Try for 500whp swap for less than 5k.




I think if I tackle another car it's going to be either a really simple swap like Subaru 6 or Honda. Or a Audi V8 simply for the sound.

No boxster radiators.. they won't fit well. Toyota Celica is the one you want. The aluminum rad on eBay is good for up to a big v6. Possibly enough for a small V8. (Sub 5L)

I thought about the Honda engine and trans swap - the biggest drawback is the width you're dealing with running it transversely. I did some measuring while I worked at Honda and there'd be some interesting modifications to make it fit right and line up the axles. The V6 seemed too tall with it fit to the Honda 5 spd and to me it seemed like wayy too much work. But if someone put in the time to modify everything that was needed, you'd have a great weight setup and a sweet package because it's all designed to work together already. ECU and all... tempting for sure.

Yes the K series is a very strong, cheap, plentiful motor. I have a K24 in my 2006 Acura that still runs like new. I'm half tempted to put a k20 in my Vanagon. Even the non-vtec 2.0 is ~130ish HP. Can be had for like $500.

This subject has been beaten to death. Are you expecting a different answer? For me, after all these years, it's really simple. Go LS for the aluminum v8, or go flat with Porsche 6 or Subaru 4 to keep the boxer. Why would you go any other way? If you want to go Audi, we have a couple of experts here, but they have all fought technical issues and may not still be on the road as a reliable driver.

Is it a crime to want a lightweight high revving motor for my lightweight mid engined sports car? There's really not that much out there with this concept, even though it should be a pretty natural combination.

The Subaru motor I acknowledge will be a much easier swap. It's my primary fall back option, since I don't want to drop $10k on a 100 hp 911 motor and I'd rather just sell my 914 and buy a corvette than to put an LS in my 914.

Even then, my subaru has historically been the most problematic of all my cars. And I really don't need that much power in my 914. I always feel like my outback is going to blow up when I gas it. Conversely, the favorite thing about my Boxster is how in it's element it feels (and sounds) when you're pedal to the metal. I know the K motor will be able to handle pretty much as much abuse as I'll be able to give it.

Lots of 914 guys around you... Why dont you go for a ride in a few different cars? I'll have mine on the road in a couple months and your welcome to feel a laggy 500hp big turbo 4 motor. Mueller should be getting his on the road shortly after he finishes his small to do list (BUILD DAY?????) and thats a Honda v6 motor..


Honestly I wouldnt bother putting any motor in a 914 that didnt at least have 200hp that wasnt a type 4 or 911 motor...

100hp feels pretty slow. 140hp feels quick, 180hp feels Plenty quick. But that 200hp mark is where things really start to get FUN. Below that just about any modern car on the street will be faster..

DP

The Honda V6 swaps mentioned above have used the stock 914 transmission, I believe.

BTW, I am a firm believer that the 914 is an immense amount of fun with less than 100 HP; I take issue with the thought that "200 HP is where the fun starts". If you drive it right, you can have fun with two-digit power levels.

Oh, and any time you're doing the first swap of motor X into a 914, you will want to measure and measure and measure and measure. Some engines that would seem to be natural for swaps (928 V8 engines, 944 engines, some others, even four-bangers) actually do not fit without some fairly significant mods. The firewall on the 914 tilts back at a noticeable angle, and that can cause fitment problems for taller engines. The firewall can be moved, the whole drivetrain can be shifted aft in the car, and other things can be done, but you will definitely want to figure out if any of those are needed first.

--DD

Dave,

My point is I think below the 200hp territory, the best motor for the job is the type 4 motor.

I would absolutely love to check out some other 914's!
Don't get me wrong, I will be powing around in that type 4 for some time before I get down into a swap. I have not done all my research on built type 4's, but it seems like everyone recommends that Jake Raby kit which is like $9k. I get that it's an all in one kit, but seriously? That's some serious dough.

As far as horsepower goes, I don't know if I totally agree even when talking swaps. I much more heavily consider the character and feeling the motor gives you over pretty much anything else. I'm not going to race it, at least not for serious competition. It's entirely for fun. That's why the 4AGE sounded better to me than a K series. Shoot I almost want to put a Busso V6 in the thing. But obviously I have to consider having an actual realizable goal.



I will definitely keep this in mind. Yet another reason I should choose a domestic motor. So I can go down to a local dismantler and take a bunch of measurements before I make any rash decisions.

I'm glad you understand the costs. $10k on a 100hp 911 motor? Not my style for sure. 500hp in a motor that weighs about the same as a Porsche 6 but costs half as much? Easy call if you want grunt. And don't compare a Corvette to a 914 with an LS engine, lol.

I respect whatever you want to do. Just as a personal preference, I would either go boxer low and flat or all aluminum v8. Weight balance is as important as engine in these cars. If you go with something more complex, it's extremely critical you know what you are doing in every way, because even experts in Audi conversions still have unresolved problems.

More important than anything is that you do what stokes you. I look forward to seeing what you do!

Somebody talk me out of buying this guy and pulling the engine out of it..

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/d/alfa...6743361233.html

Man, that would be glorious

You were complaining the subaru being unreliable....

Says the guy pushing 500hp out of his 4 cylinder


Not that I'm really that serious, but the Busso V6 is rarely the most problematic part of any Alfa. And it would for sure satisfy what I want out of an engine. However, I'm sure the parts are not cheap nor reasonable to get. And for swapping motors into a car not meant for it, that's probably the most valuable thing I could ask for. Good aftermarket and available parts.

It's not like they make an adapter for this thing anyways, I wouldn't know where the heck to start. But it would sure be cool..

Tell ya what, if you want to waste money like that just fly me out to your place I'll kick you in the nuts and take your money. You'll be in pain and broke and still without a car that runs , it'll feel just like owning an Alfa.

Lets not bring my poor decisions into play

Alfa owners on suicide watch now

Looks like you're doing a Subaru H6.. is that using the Subaru trans also?

I read this thread thinking I was logged into 914 World.

Where am I?

Yeah I'm running a short geared suby 5 speed.

Buy it for the Brembo calipers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPgE40t4dc

Well while we are dreaming
Matra V12

More motivation... K20A2 Porsche 911




Click to view attachment


I did my Nissan VQ30DE swap back in 2000 before forums existed. Fairly easy to do. The most time consuming part was going page by page thru the FSM to find and wire the dozen separate ECU power connections and the gauge wiring. Then after it's running you have to go thru it all again to make it pretty... it's one of the laws of swapping

Don't listen to the old folks... 200hp IS the sweet spot.

A T4 power build makes sense if you do it yourself, then the bill is under $2k. Otherwise a modern FI motor swap makes more sense.

My old timer advice is to attend one of the World events next year and drive a few cars. Then you will have a strong basis to decide on your power level and swap difficulty.

Man that K swapped 911.. 11.5 compression with a turbo is BOLD. I'm sure that build costed a fortune.

That's actually the part I also figured would be the most time consuming. Which is why a motor with a lot of info floating about and aftermarket would be so useful. I've already looked at some gauges even, ideally I'd like to modify mine to accept the correct signal and go to a higher RPM but that's probably more trouble than it's worth. It's just I like the 914 gauges... Oh well.

So, with a T4 build that would cost me $2k.. what kit/ stuff would I be buying? Because I have an engine builder dude I worked with to make my E30 stroker happen. He can do whatever I can't, like a 3 angle valve job, hone the cylinders, etc. I do like the idea of a really hotted up type 4 with dual Webers, also. But obviously would rather have a swap, especially if the cost difference wasn't that much, or the outcome of the T4 was barely over 100hp.

In any case I would be doing as much of this as I can on my own. I plan to even sand it down myself however getting someone else to paint it. My friend owns a shop and has a lot of contacts in the auto world, so I can probably get it done for a very reasonable price.

The custom work, I plan on designing in solidworks and bringing into my own workplace where they should be able to make it happen. Little parts I can probably get done for free but an engine cradle or something I'd have to pay some hourly rate.

And, I definitely plan on driving/ riding in some cars before deciding, definitely. When are the events and are there some in California?

Most of the Subie guys use SpeedHut gauges. Mainly because of the lack of a cable speedo drive on the Subie trans and VSS math being a bitch. I used a Nissan gauge cluster with a VSS converter.

T4 build would be stroker crank, fatter pistons & cylinders, head work w/ bigger valves, and hot cam, plus carbs or FI. Labor extra $$.
I have an 80s built 2.4L in the garage. Stock 2L crank and machined 4" SBC pistons. That was a torquey beast until it melted #3. Nobody builds them that way anymore for a reason.

I built my crossbar on the car off a basic drawing. Some things you just can't measure. Plus it's faster.

I've been sick the past few days, but I couldn't help but fuss with the 914 a bit.

Got a couple of suspicious things going on. I plugged the fuel pump in, but with the ignition on it does not power the fuel pump. I have the supply line disconnected, and even tried cranking but no fuel is coming out.

Tested voltage at the fuel pump plug, I'm reading 6V. Don't know why it's not 12.. and seems a little suspicious that it's exactly half. Tomorrow I'll try putting in the new bosch 69133 fuel pump. If it doesn't work ill just jump the wires... maybe put a switch in like a race car lol.

But yeah, at this point I'm thinking, sort out the fuel pump and It'll probably run. Hopefully.

I've seen a flat four alfa in a Puma..... and I built something a little outside the box. 4cyl watercooled volks engines with a Kennedy adaptor fit. I've seen video of a 16 valve with webers which would be an easy build. I went a little different, more torque and less revs, VW AAZ diesel. can be pushed to 6000 rpm and 30 pounds boost, or so I'm told. Mine isn't that hot yet.. but I think I have the revs. haven't had it on a dyno.Very simple with a mechanical diesel, one wire to the injection pump for fuel shutoff and hook up the starter to make it run.
Not everyone's cup of tea but I like it. Lots of options out there. Whatever floats your boat.

I have heard either this car, or another one with the same engine, running. The engine note is FECKING EERIE!!! Sent chills up my spine. Very cool swap, though not a car I would own.

--DD