New 914 owner! Already dreaming of engine swaps..., What would you guys think about a 4A-GE blacktop in a 914? Options

[Andyrew]

After driving the 914 I think I might just go a different direction for engine swaps. Super cheap.. but still cool. Subaru Frankenmotor- the 2.5L with 2.2 SOHC heads, give it some nice cams, 3 angle valve job, maybe some mild porting. Good for about 200hp. I can easily buy the engine pieces opportunistically, and save a lot of money. This'll make me feel better about investing towards some fun stuff.. maybe ITB's? :0

I was even thinking of using the EJ251 harness & ECU because it already runs off a MAP...

Peter has that swap, great running car with sensible power.

I've got a video of a drag race between him and when I had a V8 swap. The weight difference and agression off the line for his car meant that he kept up with me to about 60mph when I started to pull on him. I would totally agree with that kind of swap.

The more time behind the wheel of a 914 the better (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tdskip]

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.

[betz]

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.

This is very true. Even partially plowed is better than nothing.

Not going to lie. I'm strongly considering a type 4 build now. Which may or may not be related to the fact that the type 4 may be the absolute easiest motor in existence to fit ITB's to affordably. Looks like they sell 40mm and 48mm throttles for about $550 for all 4. (Why no middle ground??)

Looking into it, I think the big bottleneck for a budget build is the heads. Ideally, I'd want to fit the biggest possible valves into my 1.7 heads as possible and do the whole spark plug relocation thing. I need to talk to some engine builders, I may have a contact with lots of experience with these heads.

If I get the head figured out, seems like the hot ticket will be the 96mm cylinders, 78.4mm crankshaft, and a nice cam to compliment the setup. Wonder if I can pull 6-6.5k RPM out of this motor... what's the limiting factor besides the cam?

From there, I've already decided what I want to do if I go down this path. Megasquirt with ITB's. 100%. I have absolutely 0 experience with carburetors so the whole idea of it being simpler and easier is not the case for me. When I set up the megasquirt with a proper tune I'll never have to worry about it being tempermental and it will run smoother than a carb'd car ever would.


The only thing *not* making me want to build a type 4 is that jerk Jake Raby. Every damn thread about a type 4 build ends up with "you'd be stupid to try this yourself, the only way to have a good motor is to buy it from Jake Raby". And then Jake Raby chiming in "Years and years of R&D, we don't just toss components together, issall in the combooooooooo"

Well, I may have only gotten my degree in mechanical engineering, but if I can toss together a type 4 motor that's 80% as good as a JaKe rAbY motor for a fifth of the cost, then I would consider that a major success.

Is 150 crank hp achievable with this spec?

[914_teener]

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.

This is very true. Even partially plowed is better than nothing.

Not going to lie. I'm strongly considering a type 4 build now. Which may or may not be related to the fact that the type 4 may be the absolute easiest motor in existence to fit ITB's to affordably. Looks like they sell 40mm and 48mm throttles for about $550 for all 4. (Why no middle ground??)

Looking into it, I think the big bottleneck for a budget build is the heads. Ideally, I'd want to fit the biggest possible valves into my 1.7 heads as possible and do the whole spark plug relocation thing. I need to talk to some engine builders, I may have a contact with lots of experience with these heads.

If I get the head figured out, seems like the hot ticket will be the 96mm cylinders, 78.4mm crankshaft, and a nice cam to compliment the setup. Wonder if I can pull 6-6.5k RPM out of this motor... what's the limiting factor besides the cam?

From there, I've already decided what I want to do if I go down this path. Megasquirt with ITB's. 100%. I have absolutely 0 experience with carburetors so the whole idea of it being simpler and easier is not the case for me. When I set up the megasquirt with a proper tune I'll never have to worry about it being tempermental and it will run smoother than a carb'd car ever would.


The only thing *not* making me want to build a type 4 is that jerk Jake Raby. Every damn thread about a type 4 build ends up with "you'd be stupid to try this yourself, the only way to have a good motor is to buy it from Jake Raby". And then Jake Raby chiming in "Years and years of R&D, we don't just toss components together, issall in the combooooooooo"

Well, I may have only gotten my degree in mechanical engineering, but if I can toss together a type 4 motor that's 80% as good as a JaKe rAbY motor for a fifth of the cost, then I would consider that a major success.

Is 150 crank hp achievable with this spec?

Your personnel comments about someone probably aren't necessary.

Your classes in thermodynamics would tell you what is achievable.

edit:

And the size of your wallet is what is possible.

[betz]

Your personnel comments about someone probably aren't necessary.

Your classes in thermodynamics would tell you what is achievable.

edit:

And the size of your wallet is what is possible.

I didn't need to mention any contacts true.. kind of just thinking out loud that that'll be useful.

My classes in thermodynamics told me that I'd better get the cold reservoir in my engine sub arctic and get that hot reservoir to the surface of the sun and then just garden hose fuel by the gallon and I'll get basically infinite power.

Mechanical engineering courses don't teach jack about building an engine or anything really useful in the real world for that matter, however it does force you to think like an engineer. Whether somebody can apply that to the real world is up to said person. I have built an engine before and that engine got me to work this morning, so I like to think I can apply it well enough.

Realistically I'm not even chasing power else I'd never even consider the type 4. I just want a fun motor. IE, a motor that doesn't feel like you're accelerating with a leaf blower pointed backwards out the window. Other than that.. I'm chasing sound, character, and response. I'm realizing the type 4 may be the ticket to that.

[mepstein]

Your personnel comments about someone probably aren't necessary.

Your classes in thermodynamics would tell you what is achievable.

edit:

And the size of your wallet is what is possible.

I didn't need to mention any contacts true.. kind of just thinking out loud that that'll be useful.

My classes in thermodynamics told me that I'd better get the cold reservoir in my engine sub arctic and get that hot reservoir to the surface of the sun and then just garden hose fuel by the gallon and I'll get basically infinite power.

Mechanical engineering courses don't teach jack about building an engine or anything really useful in the real world for that matter, however it does force you to think like an engineer. Whether somebody can apply that to the real world is up to said person. I have built an engine before and that engine got me to work this morning, so I like to think I can apply it well enough.

Realistically I'm not even chasing power else I'd never even consider the type 4. I just want a fun motor. IE, a motor that doesn't feel like you're accelerating with a leaf blower pointed backwards out the window. Other than that.. I'm chasing sound, character, and response. I'm realizing the type 4 may be the ticket to that.

You just described a small to mid six.

[betz]

You just described a small to mid six.

I would love an air cooled 6.

Think I could do an air-cooled 6 for under $5k? How about $10k? Yeah. Not gonna happen. Plus I have a perfect little car with a Porsche flat 6 already.

[Dave_Darling]

We know people who run Type IV motors at 7K RPM pretty regularly. Those are race motors, though, and not really suitable for anything but a race car. (Lives in a very narrow power band, gets torn down every weekend, and so on.)

Valve train is one limiting factor for RPM. We have heard of people lightening the stock rocker arms, using high-rate springs, and so on. That helps keeps the valves under control at higher RPMs. So does using lightweight valves and other moving bits (e.g., retainers).

Simply stuffing the largest valves possible into a cylinder head isn't going to be the best you can do. A good cylinder head specialist will work with you on desired power level, RPM range, cam, carbs, exhaust, and so on, and will optimize flow by working the port shapes as well as port and valve sizes. Remember that larger valves are heavier than smaller ones, and require more spring pressure to control.

Lots of stuff can be done. If you know someone who really can do the work well, an honest 150 HP should be very possible.

Note that once you go above ~74mm stroke, one of the rods will start getting perilously close to one of the cam lobes. Double and triple check before you get too deep into it!! Some folks go to reduced base-circle cams for extra clearance. Which works, but seems to be a bit harder on the cam/lifter interface.

Your wallet size will have a very very large effect on how much power you can extract from the motor. And on its durability. Building both of those at the same time can take a lot of work--and therefore a lot of money.

--DD

[betz]

Thanks for the reply Dave.

I just made a black friday order of 914rubber for some houndstooth seats and a loop carpet set! Still working on making the car driveable in the meantime.

Was wondering... Does anyone know about doing a swap with the Subaru / Toyota FA-20 engine found in the FR-S/BRZ/86? I haven't seen a single thread on here where someone has done that. But it seems like an obvious choice to me to someone who wants revs, 200hp N/A, and a nice reliable modern motor. Plus, the FA20 is about to be in it's heyday for aftermarket, as BRZs get more and more affordable. The aftermarket is already quite good. Yeah I mean, they're more pricey motors marginally ($2-3k at first glance), but I'm also working with essentially a brand new high performance motor and won't have to do anything in the way of engine refresh and internal modification.

Doing some searching, it might even bolt up to other subaru transmissions, and therefore work with all of the Subaru swap stuff currently on the market. I'm not sure though. I would wonder if anything engine mount / transmission related is different.

In any case I think this motor would look very right in a 914 engine bay...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i.imgur.com-22593-1543278884.1.jpg)

[rhodyguy]

wow.

[Dave_Darling]

Well, it sure looks cool! No idea of the answers to your questions about it though.

I'm a bit surprised they're available that cheap; I figured they were still too new to have many available from wreckers. Much like the 718 motors. (Which could make for an interesting all-Porsche swap!)

--DD

[Larmo63]

I'd call Jake Raby and get his opinion.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

[betz]

Well, it sure looks cool! No idea of the answers to your questions about it though.

I'm a bit surprised they're available that cheap; I figured they were still too new to have many available from wreckers. Much like the 718 motors. (Which could make for an interesting all-Porsche swap!)

--DD

You're right, couldn't find a single 718 motor on car-part. But the FR-S and BRZ has been available since 2012! And it's only a $25-30k car new. Plenty of time for people to crash it. The new BRZ and Toyota 86 with a stunning 205hp don't have many engines available though. My friend has a 2018 and I can attest the difference in hp is not noticed and the torque dip is still present. The tighter gearing is nice though.

There's actually a 31k mile motor available 5 miles from me in San Jose for $2200. It's pretty tempting. But I think if I went through with this, I'd need the engine, wiring harness and ECU at a minimum. Would be nice to find a car that's being freshly parted out.

[Chris914n6]

The 86 is like the 350z... the enthusiasts are doing motor mods and blowing them faster than cars get wrecked. Prices are going to be high for a long time.

[betz]

The 86 is like the 350z... the enthusiasts are doing motor mods and blowing them faster than cars get wrecked. Prices are going to be high for a long time.

I don't think that's totally true for the 350Z. The insurance rates are super high on that car for a reason. It was named the most deadly car in 2011. They get crashed a lot and I'm sure you can get a VQ motor for super cheap.

$2200 is not a lot for a motor with 30k miles. It's actually kind of a bargain. Really a bargain when you consider it's a 100hp/L motor. Here in CA you're not even allowed to modify the motor. The most people do is a cold air intake and exhaust. If people are turboing they are also doing motor swaps. Shoot, there's that one out there with a Ferrari 458 motor.

There are easily more crashed cars than turbod cars that blow up. The prices will continue to go down as the motor gets older. All of this is moot though because I can totally afford one right now if I wanted it. It will cost me less to buy this than it would be to buy an old tired subie motor and refresh it.

The question is.. will it be a relatively easy swap?

[1adam12]

I originally thought of doing an FA-20 swap a year ago when I purchased my 914 but ultimately decided to keep it air cooled. I even discussed it to the shop that built the Super Street FRS SEMA build with ITB set up. They said it was an absolute headache as they had to customize everything as expected and the tune was difficult with the ITB set up.

[betz]

I originally thought of doing an FA-20 swap a year ago when I purchased my 914 but ultimately decided to keep it air cooled. I even discussed it to the shop that built the Super Street FRS SEMA build with ITB set up. They said it was an absolute headache as they had to customize everything as expected and the tune was difficult with the ITB set up.

I mean that's to be expected, not only converting it to ITBs but converting a motor designed with direct injection in mind for port injection. Did they have any insight on putting one in a 914?

[1adam12]

I originally thought of doing an FA-20 swap a year ago when I purchased my 914 but ultimately decided to keep it air cooled. I even discussed it to the shop that built the Super Street FRS SEMA build with ITB set up. They said it was an absolute headache as they had to customize everything as expected and the tune was difficult with the ITB set up.

I mean that's to be expected, not only converting it to ITBs but converting a motor designed with direct injection in mind for port injection. Did they have any insight on putting one in a 914?

At the time I only discussed with them regarding the engine build. I didn't even go into fabrication needed and installing it since I changed my plans.

[Chi-town]

FA20 is a joke. Underpowered, unreliable when used hard, and a small fortune to build correctly. Oh and still no reliable upgrade for the oil pump in the front cover of other than dry sumping it.

And don't get me started on the DIT version (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Mike Bellis]

Going down a path that others have plowed is likely to give you a much better result, much quicker.

This is very true. Even partially plowed is better than nothing.

Not going to lie. I'm strongly considering a type 4 build now. Which may or may not be related to the fact that the type 4 may be the absolute easiest motor in existence to fit ITB's to affordably. Looks like they sell 40mm and 48mm throttles for about $550 for all 4. (Why no middle ground??)

Looking into it, I think the big bottleneck for a budget build is the heads. Ideally, I'd want to fit the biggest possible valves into my 1.7 heads as possible and do the whole spark plug relocation thing. I need to talk to some engine builders, I may have a contact with lots of experience with these heads.

If I get the head figured out, seems like the hot ticket will be the 96mm cylinders, 78.4mm crankshaft, and a nice cam to compliment the setup. Wonder if I can pull 6-6.5k RPM out of this motor... what's the limiting factor besides the cam?

From there, I've already decided what I want to do if I go down this path. Megasquirt with ITB's. 100%. I have absolutely 0 experience with carburetors so the whole idea of it being simpler and easier is not the case for me. When I set up the megasquirt with a proper tune I'll never have to worry about it being tempermental and it will run smoother than a carb'd car ever would.


The only thing *not* making me want to build a type 4 is that jerk Jake Raby. Every damn thread about a type 4 build ends up with "you'd be stupid to try this yourself, the only way to have a good motor is to buy it from Jake Raby". And then Jake Raby chiming in "Years and years of R&D, we don't just toss components together, issall in the combooooooooo"

Well, I may have only gotten my degree in mechanical engineering, but if I can toss together a type 4 motor that's 80% as good as a JaKe rAbY motor for a fifth of the cost, then I would consider that a major success.

Is 150 crank hp achievable with this spec?

Jake is a Marine and we have a very low bull shit tolerance. I actually love it when he rants. It reminds me of the good ole days... Semper Fi

He is the best when it comes to the T4 engine but there are others that are also very good. HAM makes the best head modifications. You can now buy much of Raby's tech at the T4 Store and get on the waiting list for HAM to do your heads. Be prepared to buy new heads when HAM rejects them. Making good reliable HP in a T4 is not cheap. Main bearings can be hard to source. For the price of a good T4, you could drop a SBC with adapter kit and have money left for gas...