Major Cooling System issues, Flap system removed by PO Options

[Gatornapper]

Superhawk -

Was MY BAD, not the dealer who checked the compression in 2005 and 4k miles ago. Don't know of car setting at all when he checked it.

Car sat in barn for 12 years - I thought of the possibility of a nest, but thought I'd just be careful watching temp.

In many drives of 30 min or less, car never even reached operating temp. Over a dozen drives. So I figured no problem. No nest, right? I had no idea flaps had been removed preventing normal warm up.

So then last Friday I took the car for its first long drive. No problem for first hour or so. Then got on interstate, and watched it go high - but never reach the red......If it touched the red, I was pulling over and shutting down. And I was too far from home to just pull over and let it cool since it wasn't in the red.

So it was my doing the damage from not understanding the system. MY BAD!

But 90/100 isn't good compression anyway, so a rebuild has always been a known possibility.

GN

[falcor75]

When you've pulled the driveshafts from the gearbox just pull a plastic bag or cheap rubber glove over the cv joint and ziptie it in place untill you are ready to reinstall.

I hate cv joint grease !

[Mblizzard]

Superhawk -

Was MY BAD, not the dealer who checked the compression in 2005 and 4k miles ago. Don't know of car setting at all when he checked it.

Car sat in barn for 12 years - I thought of the possibility of a nest, but thought I'd just be careful watching temp.

In many drives of 30 min or less, car never even reached operating temp. Over a dozen drives. So I figured no problem. No nest, right? I had no idea flaps had been removed preventing normal warm up.

So then last Friday I took the car for its first long drive. No problem for first hour or so. Then got on interstate, and watched it go high - but never reach the red......If it touched the red, I was pulling over and shutting down. And I was too far from home to just pull over and let it cool since it wasn't in the red.

So it was my doing the damage from not understanding the system. MY BAD!

But 90/100 isn't good compression anyway, so a rebuild has always been a known possibility.

GN

As a note, it generally thought that pulling over and immediately shutting down a hot engine is bad. Sometime you have no choice but if you can pull over and sit for a few minutes with the engine at 2,000 it will greatly reduce eh potential for damage and help dissipate the built up heat.

The Temp gauge is fine but you really need to add a cylinder head temperature (CHT) sensor. the CHT will give you advance warning that you are heating up help predict lean operation of the engine.

[Superhawk996]

My bad - jumping to a conclusion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I read that as if the dealer had recently checked the compression recently.

Still sorry to hear the tale of woe.

[Gatornapper]

Great tip! I use plastic bags for similar containment....just makes sense.

Thanks!

GN

When you've pulled the driveshafts from the gearbox just pull a plastic bag or cheap rubber glove over the cv joint and ziptie it in place untill you are ready to reinstall.

I hate cv joint grease !

[Gatornapper]

Update:

Engine was cold yesterday when I took compression readings. Warmed it up today, and they are a tiny bit better - explain why the engine doesn't run too bad. 3 was 85 and 4 was 90.

So a top-end rebuild is still ahead........open to suggestions for the best package for installing the D-jet and best suggestions for keeping the Weber 44's and existing bottom end......

GN

[Gatornapper]

SH -

You didn't jump to conclusions. In desiring to be brief, I left out a lot of details. You didn't have enough to work with.

GN

My bad - jumping to a conclusion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I read that as if the dealer had recently checked the compression recently.

Still sorry to hear the tale of woe.

[Gatornapper]

Ran engine today in 93* ambient until gauge was just over halfway, maybe 5/8 over position, read oil temp with infrared scanner at oil filter & crankcase: 252*

Would like to get my scope into area above oil cooler, but cannot see anyway to do it except pull front right tin - can I do this w/o pulling distributor? Any other way to get my scope in there?

TIA,

GN

[Gatornapper]

Still wondering if there is a way to see the top of the oil cooler with my scope - it's about 3/8" diameter on 24" flex shaft.

Sure like to know if there is debris blocking the airflow.

TIA,

GN

[jcd914]

Still wondering if there is a way to see the top of the oil cooler with my scope - it's about 3/8" diameter on 24" flex shaft.

Sure like to know if there is debris blocking the airflow.

TIA,

GN

Have you tried going in through the #4 spark plug hole in the sheet-metal?
It seems like a logical entry point.

Jim

[rhodyguy]

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. You know the cooling flaps, bellow and wire need to be installed. You'll see if the oil cooler needs to be addressed when you get the tin off. If you scope it and it's fouled you're right back to square one. Trying to squirt brake cleaner on the cooler as it sits is a waste of time and money. The stench will be massive after a couple of cans.

[Gatornapper]

Rhodyguy -

You are right on.

So, can I install the flaps, bellow and wire from up top? Do I just take off the front tins? Bellow/thermostat goes below, right? Having never seen one, I don't know - Haynes manual is clear as mud.

Where can I find all I need for the flaps, etc.? All the parts?

So I am focused on putting the flaps in next. But I need all the help I can get - I am the greenest of green on all things 914. And I don't have another one nearby to check out....that I know of.

Appreciate all the help.......

GN

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. You know the cooling flaps, bellow and wire need to be installed. You'll see if the oil cooler needs to be addressed when you get the tin off. If you scope it and it's fouled you're right back to square one. Trying to squirt brake cleaner on the cooler as it sits is a waste of time and money. The stench will be massive after a couple of cans.

[Gatornapper]

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

[Porschef]

There’s bugging a previous owner with a multitude of questions, and then there’s asking if he might have the parts that were removed that have caused your issues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

See if he has them, or anything else that you could use. Might save you some scrambling about to locate what you need

Good luck

[Garland]

Here’s a shot with the shroud and heater tins removed.

[Rand]

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.

Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.

Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).

[rhodyguy]

WHY the P.O. removed the system is not relevant to the discussion.

[Gatornapper]

Great idea, thank you, but "Been there, done that" ,

He made it very clear last time I talked and asked about missing parts, "I gave you ALL THE PARTS I HAVE. I don't have any more!" Yes, I got a nasty fuel tank the dealer had totally redone in 2005 by someone who didn't know what they were doing, and I had it done again by a pro with lifetime warranty - and a large box of too many parts to list.

BTW, I bought the car 2 years ago too.

BUT, I will ask him why he removed the flaps......

GN

There’s bugging a previous owner with a multitude of questions, and then there’s asking if he might have the parts that were removed that have caused your issues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

See if he has them, or anything else that you could use. Might save you some scrambling about to locate what you need

Good luck

[Superhawk996]

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.

Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.

Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Having money to race 911's is no indication of mechanical aptitude. I've built and crewed on many race cars for a rich owners that had absolutely no mechanical knowledge.

There is no point in asking why they were removed. Asking the uninformed for their rationale will not change the fact that these engines rely on the flaps to direct air to the oil cooler. Just buy a set of flaps. In my case, I found a front shroud complete with flaps for about $50.00 on eBay. Members here will help you find a set of flaps.

The flaps are an absolute MUST for getting air directed across the oil cooler. Over the years numerous well intended people removed the flaps thinking it helps when it is in fact the exact opposite. A lack of flaps will induce slow warm up, excess water condensation in the oil, and ultimately overheating once the engine is under load.

Forget the term air cooled - these engines are heavily OIL Cooled.

Easiest path to success is to bite the bullet, drop the engine, clear any mouse nest debris and ensure the oil cooler is clear.

Please look at my build thread (PAGE 6) in my signature if you want to see can happen to the internals of an engine run without flaps.

Type 4's are not complex engines but they do demand proper treatment. Removal of the flaps is a clear indication that the previous owner had absolutely no idea of what he was doing.

[Gatornapper]

Loud and clear, SH.

Do I HAVE to drop the engine to put the flaps in?

TIA,

GN

While it is clear that I have to put the flaps & bellow in, it is also clear that there could only be one reason that the P.O. pulled them - the engine was overheating and he thought he would solve the problem by doing so.

Does this not strongly suggest that re-installing the flap system will cause the engine to overheat as it apparently did for him?

Hope someone can come up with some logic that will shoot my thinking down.....

GN

PS: The P.O. was no dummy and raced 911's. He got this car for his girlfriend, who gave it back to him when she realized it did not have A/C. I grilled him extensively before purchasing the car, and his 914 knowledge and Porsche knowledge were impressive. So, what doesn't make sense is that he would remove the flap system without knowing it would only make the overheating problem worse.........I could call him (he is local, have his number), but I got the impression that he would rather not be bothered with questions after the sale. I did a contract agreeing that I was purchasing the car "As Is....".

PS: The PO was ABSOLUTELY a clear dummy when it comes to TIVs in 914s. Obviously. Get the flaps in because it directs the cooling air where it needs to go. Pulling the flaps out thinking it will improve air flow is a clear indicator of not understanding how it works. The flaps don't inhibit air flow, they direct it where it needs to go.

Get the flaps in they way they are supposed to be. Don't even worry about the bellows yet, it only helps it warm up faster. It's way more important to keep it from overheating.

Get that shit right and THEN we can help you troubleshoot why it was actually overheating (if it still will).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Having money to race 911's is no indication of mechanical aptitude. I've built and crewed on many a race cars for a rich owners that had absolutely no mechanical knowledge.

There is no point in asking why they were removed. Asking the uninformed for their rationale will not change the fact that these engines rely on the flaps to direct air to the oil cooler. Just buy a set of flaps. In my case, I found a front shroud complete with flaps for about $50.00 on eBay. Members here will help you find a set of flaps.

The flaps are an absolute MUST for getting air directed across the oil cooler. Over the years numerous well intended people removed the flaps thinking it helps when it is in fact the exact opposite. A lack of flaps will induce slow warm up, excess water condensation in the oil, and ultimately overheating once the engine is under load.

Forget the term air cooled - these engines are heavily OIL Cooled.

Easiest path to success is to bite the bullet, drop the engine, clear any mouse nest debris and ensure the oil cooler is clear.

Please look at my build thread (PAGE 6) in my signature if you want to see can happen to the internals of an engine run without flaps.

Type 4's are not complex engines but they do demand proper treatment. Removal of the flaps is a clear indication that the previous owner had absolutely no idea of what he was doing.