Major Cooling System issues, Flap system removed by PO Options

[Gatornapper]

FYI - dropping the engine is no problem in and of itself.

What is the problem is that my lift bay is in demand for other work and vehicles and if it is going to be tied up for any period of time, I need to plan that well in advance.

Dropping the engine will tie up my lift bay for some time, as I am involved in 100 other things besides working on my 914......actually, working on it is something I do in my spare time......and because of that I don't know how long it will take me to do the work with the flaps.

I also don't want to drop the engine twice in a short period of time. It needs a top-end rebuild and I need to plan that out. I'm still not certain of which way I want to go on that.

Hopes this helps to explain some of my comments......the problem and issue is timing, not technicals.......

GN

[Superhawk996]

On a 914 it is much easier to just drop the engine and then do work.

I constantly see people trying to do work with the engine in the car and often it can be done. BUT, it is so much harder.

Only takes about 90 minutes to drop the engine, trans, muffler assembly and then everything is right out in the open. First time will take you longer but honestly once you've done it once, it is so easy after that.

In the case of the flaps, you'll need to pull the front fan shroud castings - I honestly don't believe that can be done with the engine in. If it could be done, it will be so much harder that it makes the discussion irrelevant.

If you have the luxury of having $$, buy the Tangerine engine lift adapter for your floor jack. I think $129. Makes life so easy.

Having said that, the bulk of the the time I owned my 1st 914 I was either in the military as a poor E2/E3 or in college with even less money.

I restored my 1st car with nothing more than a K-mart socket set, vice grips, a few screwdrivers, a hammer, and a 1 1/2 ton K-mart floor jack. Dropped the engine many times with nothing more than than what is listed above.

I promise dropping the engine isn't that hard and it will save you so much time in the long run. This is true of nearly every mid-engine car whether its a Fiero or a Ferrari.

[Rand]

FYI - dropping the engine is no problem in and of itself.

What is the problem is that my lift bay is in demand for other work and vehicles and if it is going to be tied up for any period of time, I need to plan that well in advance.

Dropping the engine will tie up my lift bay for some time, as I am involved in 100 other things besides working on my 914......actually, working on it is something I do in my spare time......and because of that I don't know how long it will take me to do the work with the flaps.

I also don't want to drop the engine twice in a short period of time. It needs a top-end rebuild and I need to plan that out. I'm still not certain of which way I want to go on that.

Hopes this helps to explain some of my comments......the problem and issue is timing, not technicals.......

GN

Wait. You have access to all this. and it... sounds just like a former troll. Just do some work.

[Superhawk996]

Drop engine - then roll car off host to make room for what ever other projects you have. I understand.

Heck I've never had a hoist that is a luxury I can't yet afford. I've dropped 914 engines in the grass with just a sheet of plywood to allow the floor jack to roll back 5 foot.

Don't worry about dropping twice. After the 1st time it is so simple you'll laugh.

DO NOT pull the rear hubs - just disconnect the CV's and bungee them and/or roll carefully. Rolling without a rear stub will lead to rear bearing damage.

I actually have two spare rear hub stubs - if you would rather pull the whole rear axle CV assembly inclusive of the rear stubs, I'd be happy to either sell you my spare pair if you want a spare pair or I'll even to loan them to you for duration of your project if you just want to borrow then return.

[Rand]

Love your style. That's how most of us get it done.

[rhodyguy]

Unless the CVs are stuck/bonded to the rear of the hubs there's no reason to pull the whole axle/hub assem.

[Superhawk996]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Pulling the rear stub carries some risk in itself of accidentally separating the bearing races, losing balls, or contamination of the bearings.

Some folks just seem to prefer to pull the whole axle inclusive of CV's and stubs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[iankarr]

I suggest you try to do this with the engine in the car. After about 30 minutes of bending, struggling, and coming to the realization that it’s not really feasible/doable, you’ll resolve yourself to dropping the engine and doing the job, rather than hoping there’s another way. There’s an amazing wealth of knowledge on this site, but it serves no good at all if you don’t utilize it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The link in my signature has a video on how to drop the engine. You’ll see that it’s pretty easy, especially if you have the tangerine jack plate (which you’ll see in the video). If you PM, I’m happy to answer any other questions you have.

Just get to it! It’ll be done in less time than it took to build this thread. If you have all the parts, the drop/fix/reinstall shouldn’t take more than an afternoon....so your bay can go back to other things.

[Superhawk996]

I suggest you try to do this with the engine in the car. After about 30 minutes of bending, struggling, and coming to the realization that it’s not really feasible/doable, you’ll resolve yourself to dropping the engine and doing the job, rather than hoping there’s another way. There’s an amazing wealth of knowledge on this site, but it serves no good at all if you don’t utilize it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The link in my signature has a video on how to drop the engine. You’ll see that it’s pretty easy, especially if you have the tangerine jack plate (which you’ll see in the video). If you PM, I’m happy to answer any other questions you have.

Just get to it! It’ll be done in less time than it took to build this thread.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

You forgot the 30 minutes to put all the loose stuff back in place that will now likely preclude dropping the engine cleanly!

@Gatornapper
Not laughing at you -- its just that this subject of whether to drop or not to drop comes up so often its funny on it's own merit.

[iankarr]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) we Joke because we care. We’ve all been there, done that and are just trying to help you benefit from our pain.

[SirAndy]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) we Joke because we care. We’ve all been there, done that and are just trying to help you benefit from our pain.

^^^

[rhodyguy]

If you're set on not dropping the engine, Step 1 is remove the engine cover. Step 2, remove the battery. Step 3, spray a good penatrent on every exposed fastener you can see. Now raise the car. Bear in mind you're going to be bent over the raised car with your head in the engine compartment contorted in the weirdest positions you can imagine. How long could you hold that pose? Double or triple time on reassembly. You'll figure out about the drop 1/2 way thru the ordeal. When a few tin screws shear off, screw heads all chewed up or are just plain stuck you'll be fuming.

[SirAndy]

Engine + trans drop is less than an hour.
You don't need a rack for it either, just two jackstands and a dolly.

Trust me (and the rest posting here) dropping the engine/trans is the way to go.

Everything else will make you hate your life.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Gatornapper]

Guys -

Got the message loud and clear.

"Any smart man learns from his mistakes. A wise man learns from the mistakes of others....."

I prefer to be the latter.

I have a 10k lb. lift and a Harbor Freight motorcycle lift and was planning on dropping the engine onto it using blocking to support each corner. Can't I do that instead of buying the Tangerine plate?

What adds to the validity of what you all are saying is the availability of videos to show how it's done. I love these. I believe in apprenticeship learning - saves tons of mistakes.

Videos provide part 2 of this great Chinese proverb:

"I hear - I forget. I see - I remember. I do - I understand."

And we all know doing something the 2nd time takes half as long as the first. And the 3rd time half as long as the 2nd.........

Guys - I'm 74, and been wrenching since I was 15. And still love it. I hear you all.

GN

PS: Yes, I'm spoiled with a dream shop and garage. But it's been a long time coming.
Always worked on cars on gravel until I was 37; didn't own a home and even have a garage until I was 55 and hand-built my log home in the woods; designed & build my dream garage - it HAD to have a lift! - with my own hands (also a General and Electrical Contractor) when I was 68. So there is a real sense in which I am not spoiled. But I am blessed by God.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) we Joke because we care. We’ve all been there, done that and are just trying to help you benefit from our pain.

[ClayPerrine]

In the case of the flaps, you'll need to pull the front fan shroud castings - I honestly don't believe that can be done with the engine in. If it could be done, it will be so much harder that it makes the discussion irrelevant.

Yes, it can be done. I have done it. But it is a b1tch putting the fan shroud back on the front of the motor without screwing up the cooling flaps.

It is much easier to drop the motor and trans out of the car. If you have a lift, it is even easier. Just unhook all the stuff on top, raise it up, unhook everything but the motor mounts on the bottom. Lower the car down and place jack stands under each end of the crossbar, and one under the rear of the trans. Then unbolt the mounts, and lift the car off the engine and trans.

Putting it back is just as easy. If you moved the motor, use a couple of plumb bobs to align the crossbar with the mounts in the frame, then carefully lower the car onto the motor. Watch the CV joints and axles, they have a tendency to hang up on the trans when installing the motor.

Good luck.

[rhodyguy]

Cleaning the engine compartment is quick and easy with the engine out. There's a few other this and that too.

[Gatornapper]

Clay -

Thanks - I'm sold. Think the motorcycle lift table is best tho - puts the engine at a perfect working height, and if need be, allows me to move it - tho I won't plan on doing that due to alignment issues.

Next question guys: Why should I drop the engine and NOT do a top-end rebuild, with new C&P's, maybe renewed heads?

Thinking of the 2056 upgrade - would love advice on best sources for this.......or should I start a new thread for this?

GN

Yes, it can be done. I have done it. But it is a b1tch putting the fan shroud back on the front of the motor without screwing up the cooling flaps.

It is much easier to drop the motor and trans out of the car. If you have a lift, it is even easier. Just unhook all the stuff on top, raise it up, unhook everything but the motor mounts on the bottom. Lower the car down and place jack stands under each end of the crossbar, and one under the rear of the trans. Then unbolt the mounts, and lift the car off the engine and trans.

Putting it back is just as easy. If you moved the motor, use a couple of plumb bobs to align the crossbar with the mounts in the frame, then carefully lower the car onto the motor. Watch the CV joints and axles, they have a tendency to hang up on the trans when installing the motor.

Good luck.

[Gatornapper]

The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......

Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....

How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......

GN

[Superhawk996]

The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......

Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....

How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......

GN

You may find out when you pull the tin. Wouldn't be surprised to find a mouse house or clogged oil cooler.

Also who's to say he was paying attention and didn't overheat it or the previously mentioned girlfriend? Maybe he only drove it a few miles to Dairy Queen for an ice cream only once a year. Who really knows?

That is why I make it a personal principle to tear down every engine as if it was a core.

Heck I got my original engine (the one without flaps) running before I tore the car apart but seriously had no idea of how much rust and muck was sitting in the sump. No idea that the crank was already 0.010" undersize and scored. It would have run for a while but would have eventually destroyed itself at the most inopportune time.

These cars are now 40 - 50 years old and should be assessed as such . . . probably worn out.

Had I pulled the engine apart and found it to be pristine, no big deal. Fresh gaskets and it would have gone back together. Ah . . . if only that had been the case.

[Gatornapper]

SH -

Totally get it. But, mine does only have 60k miles on it.....pretty sure that's fairly accurate.

Debating opening the case if I do the C's & P's.......kinda know I should, but also know it will likely lead to spending money that might not be necessary - like a cam for the carbs.....

GN

The PO responded to my query and insists that he did not remove the flap system. That means he owned & drove the car from 2001 to 2006 without the flaps - with no overheating......

Which raises a whole new set of questions.....also learned this was his 3rd 914.....

How was car driven for over 5 years with no flaps and no over-heating? I guess we'll never know.......

GN

You may find out when you pull the tin. Wouldn't be surprised to find a mouse house or clogged oil cooler.

Also who's to say he was paying attention and didn't overheat it or the previously mentioned girlfriend? Maybe he only drove it a few miles to Dairy Queen for an ice cream only once a year. Who really knows?

That is why I make it a personal principle to tear down every engine as if it was a core.

Heck I got my original engine (the one without flaps) running before I tore the car apart but seriously had no idea of how much rust and muck was sitting in the sump. No idea that the crank was already 0.010" undersize and scored. It would have run for a while but would have eventually destroyed itself at the most inopportune time.

These cars are now 40 - 50 years old and should be assessed as such . . . probably worn out.

Had I pulled the engine apart and found it to be pristine, no big deal. Fresh gaskets and it would have gone back together. Ah . . . if only that had been the case.