Tracking the 914 - Need some street love too..., Turning this into a regular thing... Options

[Justinp71]

Paul Abbot pretty much retired. You may be able to find another resource on pelican parts or rebuild yourself, most of the parts were available. Paul may be selling some documentation.

Do you have webers or PMO's? Weber parts are below-
https://www.piercemanifolds.com/category_s/249.htm

I have some documents too if you need something. I recently converted to EFI but I don't know if I'd recommend if for more of a track car, its alot of work and the main advantage is more streetability and direct easy tuning.

[infraredcalvin]

Thanks all for the info, I've got a bit of an update, top end is getting torn down as we speak, will be checking and cleaning up heads and identifying cam, then putting her back together, inclusive of a new set of PMOs...

It's giving me the opportunity to see what's inside so that it can be put back hopefully finding my missing hp. I like her raw character now, maybe look at FI in the future as she becomes more street than track.

Trying to say away from the slippery slope while she's apart...

[Justinp71]

Ya it becomes a slippery slope, last year I had an oil change turn into a complete motor topside refresh with EFI.

If you are considering EFI, one thing to think about is ideally they use a different cam than carbs with more idle vacuum, I am running EFI with a carb cam. It works fine but I run it a little more on the rich side to make sure it doesn't get lean. It is still massively leaner/more efficient than carbs. I have found though there are a lot of smells that come from fuel vapors all over the car and also the engine breather.

Also if you need any carb info there is a ton on the Performance Oriented site- https://www.performanceoriented.com/history...uretors-on-911s

[infraredcalvin]

Ha, speaking of smells...

I want to replace the main fuel supply line (it has no return) with SS lines. The PO installed all oil and fuel braided lines with -AN fittings (approx 15+ years ago). I'm starting to get some weeping in the oil lines and fuel smells are getting stronger so time to replace those ASAP. I'm keeping with the AN fittings, I want to stay away from hose barbs/rubber hoses and clamps.

I have SS fuel lines, I bought the correct size compression fittings with the correct -AN ends. While reading the install data for the fittings (they are black anodized Al) I saw a specific warning not to use with SS tubing, as they will eventually leak. I forgot, different metals = corrosion.

I started looking for new compression to an fittings, which i found a few, but that also means the -AN hose end that connected to the SS fitting also needs to be stainless. I'm having trouble finding stainless hose end fittings (for nylon braided fuel hose)...

Am I overthinking this? Thoughts?

[Justinp71]

Hmm... that's a decent point. You need an electrolyte to make the galvanic corrosion and the fittings are coated all though the coating can flake off some (gas is not an electrolyte). I would be more concerned about the threaded fittings (al to ss). You can get electrolytes from external water if its in the rain. The corrosion is from electrical current flow moving from the anode to cathode thru the water, so if it stays dry its not really a problem.

I think I have SS lines (or steel?) and al AN fittings...lol.

Can you braze on aluminum AN ends with a material/metal that's an isolator? BTW hose barbed ends with EFI clamps can take a fair amount of pressure but I agree I don't like to use them around the engine, but will use them around the gas tank.

[infraredcalvin]

Ok, back to basics, the -6 has been sitting at the shop, waiting for funds, that’s finally handled, so here we go, doing it right… tearing down the whole top end, to clean and inspect. Since it’ll be apart it’s time to measure and check what I have…

Heads, already twin plugged, hopefully just a bead blast and measure
Carbs new PMO 50s?
Cams, most likely something new, something right - going with Elgin - I bet I’ll find my missing 100 hp
Dyno tune

Down the slippery slope I go…

[BillJ]

Good luck my friend

[infraredcalvin]

Update:

One giant step backwards and a tiny step forward….

Well she’s back together, had to chase metal, found embedded in piston rings so broke it down to the crank, thankfully nothing in the case. New pistons, new rockers, reground custom cam by D Elgin, fresh headwork, and 46 PMOs… we definitely found some weird things from the DAPO build, they were all corrected with the rebuild. Ok she’s gonna scream, right??!!

WRONG! On the dyno 172 hp to the wheels, talk about wah wah… so disappointed, it took a lot of tuning and playing with the electromotive ignition (dual HPV-1) to get there. Motor wants to go, but feeling like timing is crapping out. Can’t see pulley through the tiny peephole in the firewall (mech wants to cut a hatch, I don’t want it!). Can’t see the flywheel cause the dual ignition boards are mounted in the way, so we have to trust the signal through a voltmeter from the ignition boards… hmmm. Split the boards and just running on lower plugs got us the 172. Did the boards get fried from the fire??? Shoot, the banks is dry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif)

[slivel]

Update:

WRONG! On the dyno 172 hp to the wheels, talk about wah wah… so disappointed, it took a lot of tuning and playing with the electromotive ignition (dual HPV-1) to get there. Motor wants to go, but feeling like timing is crapping out. Can’t see pulley through the tiny peephole in the firewall (mech wants to cut a hatch, I don’t want it!). Can’t see the flywheel cause the dual ignition boards are mounted in the way, so we have to trust the signal through a voltmeter from the ignition boards… hmmm. Split the boards and just running on lower plugs got us the 172. Did the boards get fried from the fire??? Shoot, the banks is dry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif)

What were your air/fuel ratios on the dyno? Maybe post the dyno sheet.

Here is one from my 914.

[infraredcalvin]

Steve, thanks, i don't have the dyno sheets yet, but my mech says he’s a bit rich up top. He’s already dialed in 30 deg advance via a voltmeter on the HPV-1. He was concerned to push it any further.

Could you please share your induction type and size, ignition, and exhaust header size?

Thanks!

[stownsen914]

This motor is quite the mystery ...

30 degrees of advance is a lot for a twin plug. I've heard experienced builders mention 25-27 range on a race motor. Porsche apparently chose 25 degrees on the late aircooled RSRs.

Do you have another ignition to try, to rule out possible issues with the HPV unit?

Anything odd about the heads when you had it apart?

Sounds like you're still missing 100 hp somewhere.

[infraredcalvin]

30 deg is only using the bottom plugs. He was able to get +/-10 more hp eliminating the top plugs, so thinking the top plug hpv board may be bad, the lower possibly close behind…

Yes, we’re totally stumped on why we’re missing HP…

[Charles Freeborn]

30 deg is only using the bottom plugs. He was able to get +/-10 more hp eliminating the top plugs, so thinking the top plug hpv board may be bad, the lower possibly close behind…

Yes, we’re totally stumped on why we’re missing HP…

Perhaps rig up a camera of some sort to watch the timing marks?

[slivel]

Steve, thanks, i don't have the dyno sheets yet, but my mech says he’s a bit rich up top. He’s already dialed in 30 deg advance via a voltmeter on the HPV-1. He was concerned to push it any further.

Could you please share your induction type and size, ignition, and exhaust header size?

Thanks!

Sorry for the delay, I was unable to post for a while.

Induction: Weber 46's
Ignition: twin plug crankfire Electromotive, 1 HPV and 1 HPX
Exhaust header: 1 5/8" tubes

[infraredcalvin]

Steve @slivel ,

Have you ever had issues with ‘floating timing’ with your HPV-1? I stumbled on a thead on the bird board where a notable race engine builder discovered some HPV-1s have an issue with timing retarding at 5000 RPM instead of holding or advancing. I think that is my issue, and the cause of my missing hp…

Problem is still that my mech wants to cut a hatch in the firewall so he can put a timing light on the pulley mark to verify/compare with timing what the HPV-1 displays while on dyno.

I still don't want to cut holes or relocate the coil boards, so were at a standstill… which is fine since I’m still dry on $$$.

[infraredcalvin]

Current Dyno Sheet, def some room to play, but this is where he stoped at “30 deg” advance (according to HPV-1)

[Charles Freeborn]

FWIW, I had to abandon the HPV-1 that came with my current car. As far as I could diagnose the board had fried. It would start and run for about 2 mins then stop cold. I talked to the nice folks at Clewett who were the dealers for the brand and we surmised that the chip had timed out. Sad story about that company. It doesn't seem that there will ever be a new owner or a parts network. I tried searching for the chip but came up empty- or at least it was beyond my technical / electronic skills to cross reference. It would require un-potting the unit, replacing the chip and then re-pot.
I ended up putting a distributor back in mine with at Pertronix, which will be better received by the vintage scrutineers.
The system Clewett sells now looks lovely, but also out of my $$ range.
Cheers,
-C

[slivel]

Steve @slivel ,

Have you ever had issues with ‘floating timing’ with your HPV-1? I stumbled on a thead on the bird board where a notable race engine builder discovered some HPV-1s have an issue with timing retarding at 5000 RPM instead of holding or advancing. I think that is my issue, and the cause of my missing hp…

Problem is still that my mech wants to cut a hatch in the firewall so he can put a timing light on the pulley mark to verify/compare with timing what the HPV-1 displays while on dyno.

I still don't want to cut holes or relocate the coil boards, so were at a standstill… which is fine since I’m still dry on $$$.

I have no data recorded that would show timing over an extended period of time - just the few times that the car has been on a dynamometer. My car has been consistent in power - at least as far as my butt dyno can determine - and lap times at the tracks that I used to frequent. I too, dread the thought of one or both of my Electromotive units failing. I haven't researched it but maybe there is an aftermarket crank-fired ignition that could use or be adapted to use the toothed wheel and pickup from the Electromotive.

[GregAmy]

Charles, keep your eyes out for a Mallory disty, they're around. And last I checked, caps and rotors are still available.

If you prefer to go back to finer control over ignition timing* I can assist with developing a Microsquirt-controlled one. TheDubShop is now selling a 24-1 cam position sensor which means you don't need to pull the front off to install a crank position sensor. Should be easy to develop and install.

*IMO, for this engine and for what we do, the Mallory is perfectly fine. So is, for that matter, the stock disty with Pertronix though the latter doesn't offer much adjustment/control whereas the Mallory offer different springs for rate adjustment. The Microsquirt setup would let you fine-tune it through the full range.

[Charles Freeborn]

Charles, keep your eyes out for a Mallory disty, they're around. And last I checked, caps and rotors are still available.

If you prefer to go back to finer control over ignition timing* I can assist with developing a Microsquirt-controlled one. TheDubShop is now selling a 24-1 cam position sensor which means you don't need to pull the front off to install a crank position sensor. Should be easy to develop and install.

*IMO, for this engine and for what we do, the Mallory is perfectly fine. So is, for that matter, the stock disty with Pertronix though the latter doesn't offer much adjustment/control whereas the Mallory offer different springs for rate adjustment. The Microsquirt setup would let you fine-tune it through the full range.

Many thanks!
I did look into the Mallory - It appears a nice unit. I was able to source a sound Bosch for free and bought the Pertronix locally. For my race purposes I simply time it at full advance and call it good.

Cheers!