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> Trying to start my carbureted 1.7, Electrical help
pastormacman
post Nov 11 2019, 11:21 AM
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Issue: There's no power going to the coil/fuel pump when I turn the key. (you can skip the history and jump down to the ALL CAPS and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) to see more about the issue)

History: 16 years ago, this was a running 1.7 fuel injected '73 in Bakersfield, CA. I bought it wrecked in the front end, (hood crunched a little, passenger fender dented) A friend straightened the trunk, cut off and welded a replacement fender on and we put on a replacement hood. I had it painted and new tires on it. It was my daily driver for a couple of years.

14 years ago, I got a new daily driver and this sat for a few months. Unbeknownst to me, a critter made it's home around one of the cylinders with mud and leaves. I went to drive it and the cylinder overheated and seized the engine. I bought new cylinders and took it to a friend to replace. Upon removing the engine he discovered that my block was cracked. I found a rebuilt 1.7 down in Los Angeles and bought it to replace the old engine. My mechanic friend was going to work on it in his spare time for me.

I had always had trouble with the fuel injection, so I saw this as an opportunity to remove it and replace it with carbs. So he installed the carbs and after he got the engine back in the car, he discovered his dog had eaten the wiring harness (From the relay plate to the alternator/starter) At that point, life happened... kids grew up, I worked a lot and the car sat in that condition in one of the bays in his shop for 10 years.

Three years ago, my sons are now teenagers, and I decided I wanted to finish it up and get it out of my friends way. He had kind grown resentful of it being there. I brought it home and put it on jack stands in my garage. I ordered a new wiring harness and tried to finish the car to get it started for my kids to drive. I discovered that through life I had developed a strong case of claustrophobia and it's difficult to get under the car for me. So it has sat for another three years.

So I have a new friend who rebuilds VW Bugs who is now helping me.We've gotten all the electrical hooked back up. Removed the gas tank and flushed it out. replaced all the fuel lines, and filters. And got a new battery. Which brings me to the present...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ISSUE: WHEN WE TURN THE KEY, THERE'S NO POWER TO THE COIL OR FUEL PUMP.

Since we replaced the fuel injection with carburetors, we no longer have the ECU in the car. (in fact, I no longer have the ECU or any of the fuel injection parts anymore, they are long gone at my other friends garage) Not sure if that was a mistake, I thought I didn't need it anymore since the FI was gone.

My VW friend is not familiar enough with 914 electrical to find the issue. Could I have a bad relay? I see that there is a port for the white wires from the ECU to connect to the relay panel. Is there a part I need there in place of the ECU wiring? Is this a common issue with a carb replacement? Other electrical things work, (headlights, and whatnot) and if I continue to turn the key, the starter starts to crank, but no power to the coil/fuel pump.

Any help would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post.
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porschetub
post Nov 11 2019, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE(pastormacman @ Nov 12 2019, 06:21 AM) *

Issue: There's no power going to the coil/fuel pump when I turn the key. (you can skip the history and jump down to the ALL CAPS and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) to see more about the issue)

History: 16 years ago, this was a running 1.7 fuel injected '73 in Bakersfield, CA. I bought it wrecked in the front end, (hood crunched a little, passenger fender dented) A friend straightened the trunk, cut off and welded a replacement fender on and we put on a replacement hood. I had it painted and new tires on it. It was my daily driver for a couple of years.

14 years ago, I got a new daily driver and this sat for a few months. Unbeknownst to me, a critter made it's home around one of the cylinders with mud and leaves. I went to drive it and the cylinder overheated and seized the engine. I bought new cylinders and took it to a friend to replace. Upon removing the engine he discovered that my block was cracked. I found a rebuilt 1.7 down in Los Angeles and bought it to replace the old engine. My mechanic friend was going to work on it in his spare time for me.

I had always had trouble with the fuel injection, so I saw this as an opportunity to remove it and replace it with carbs. So he installed the carbs and after he got the engine back in the car, he discovered his dog had eaten the wiring harness (From the relay plate to the alternator/starter) At that point, life happened... kids grew up, I worked a lot and the car sat in that condition in one of the bays in his shop for 10 years.

Three years ago, my sons are now teenagers, and I decided I wanted to finish it up and get it out of my friends way. He had kind grown resentful of it being there. I brought it home and put it on jack stands in my garage. I ordered a new wiring harness and tried to finish the car to get it started for my kids to drive. I discovered that through life I had developed a strong case of claustrophobia and it's difficult to get under the car for me. So it has sat for another three years.

So I have a new friend who rebuilds VW Bugs who is now helping me.We've gotten all the electrical hooked back up. Removed the gas tank and flushed it out. replaced all the fuel lines, and filters. And got a new battery. Which brings me to the present...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) ISSUE: WHEN WE TURN THE KEY, THERE'S NO POWER TO THE COIL OR FUEL PUMP.

Since we replaced the fuel injection with carburetors, we no longer have the ECU in the car. (in fact, I no longer have the ECU or any of the fuel injection parts anymore, they are long gone at my other friends garage) Not sure if that was a mistake, I thought I didn't need it anymore since the FI was gone.

My VW friend is not familiar enough with 914 electrical to find the issue. Could I have a bad relay? I see that there is a port for the white wires from the ECU to connect to the relay panel. Is there a part I need there in place of the ECU wiring? Is this a common issue with a carb replacement? Other electrical things work, (headlights, and whatnot) and if I continue to turn the key, the starter starts to crank, but no power to the coil/fuel pump.

Any help would be appreciated. Sorry for the long post.


Wow some history right there,by all means check the pump fuse first ,then the FI and power supply relays,you can swap these for known good ones,the headlight motor ones are easy to get to.
If no luck try powering the pump direct and see if it fires up,it is not uncommon for them to stick up when not used for a while,if you get it working its a good time to check the condition of your rubber fuel lines as they don't last that long...safer too, good luck.
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TheCabinetmaker
post Nov 11 2019, 12:56 PM
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Since you don't have the injection system on it anymore, you will have to find a source of switched power. You cannot use the fuel injection pump. Way too much pressure.
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pastormacman
post Nov 11 2019, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE(TheCabinetmaker @ Nov 11 2019, 10:56 AM) *

Since you don't have the injection system on it anymore, you will have to find a source of switched power. You cannot use the fuel injection pump. Way too much pressure.

Good to know, thank you.
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pastormacman
post Nov 11 2019, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE(porschetub @ Nov 11 2019, 10:51 AM) *
Wow some history right there,by all means check the pump fuse first ,then the FI and power supply relays,you can swap these for known good ones,the headlight motor ones are easy to get to.
If no luck try powering the pump direct and see if it fires up,it is not uncommon for them to stick up when not used for a while,if you get it working its a good time to check the condition of your rubber fuel lines as they don't last that long...safer too, good luck.

I've pulled and tested five different relays (two from the headlight motors) and I have three that work. I've put two of the working relays on the power supply position and the fuel pump position on the relay board. Previously, the relay on the power supply position was one of the non-functional ones. But after turning the key, still no joy.

Then I pulled the hot from the pump and touched it to the hot on the battery using a test light. The light lit up with continuity but the pump didn't run. Maybe a bad pump. Which, if I have to now get a low pressure pump for the carbs, means I need a new pump anyway.

Another thing: looking at the relay board diagram I noticed that a few of the relay posts run through the connectors to the ECU. Post 86 on the fuel pump relay runs to post III on the ECU connector. And post 85 on the fuel pump relay and post 87 on the power supply relay run to post I on the ECU connector. Is it gonna give me a problem that there is no longer anything plugged into the ECU connector?
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pastormacman
post Nov 11 2019, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE(TheCabinetmaker @ Nov 11 2019, 10:56 AM) *

Since you don't have the injection system on it anymore, you will have to find a source of switched power...

I just saw that this was not referring to the fuel pump. What do you mean a source of switched power?
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pastormacman
post Nov 11 2019, 01:55 PM
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Just looked at ordering a low pressure fuel pump and the pictures look like the unit in my car (attached pic). I noticed the unit in my car looked newer than everything else. I'm thinking my mechanic friend had already put a low pressure fuel pump in there. But it's still not coming on.

Is there a way to unstick the fuel pump or does it need to be replaced?

Also, he had the fuel pump hot cable connected to the hot side of the ignition coil. That's not how I see it in the diagram but is that an alternative way of wiring it?


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Spoke
post Nov 11 2019, 02:14 PM
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If you didn't ground pin III on the FI ECU connector like shown, the fuel pump relay will not pull in. This doesn't power the coil though.


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ndfrigi
post Nov 11 2019, 02:16 PM
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http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...41299&st=40
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DickSteinkamp
post Nov 11 2019, 02:20 PM
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If you are unsure if your fuel pump is a low pressure one...replace it. If you try to start the car with a high pressure pump, the fuel will blow right past the closed needles and seats in the carbs, the carbs will fill the engine with fuel, and there will be a strong fire possibility.
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porschetub
post Nov 11 2019, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE(ndfrigi @ Nov 12 2019, 09:16 AM) *


Ok you have a Facet pump,I think you have a power supply issue as these pumps generally don't fail,has it got fuel on the inlet side for starters ?,have you tried powering it direct,are you powering it off the coil ? if so not really a good solution as you aren't protected by a fuse,others reasons too.
Wire the pump as per 914 info section on here ...its the best solution.
Good luck.

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SirAndy
post Nov 11 2019, 05:07 PM
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http://www.914world.com/specs/SirAndyCarbFuelPumpRelay.php

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pastormacman
post Nov 11 2019, 05:24 PM
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That link to SirAndy's instructions was very helpful. I saved it to my computer for future reference as well. I'm going to wire my fuel pump up according to that diagram. I can see now that my mechanic friend knew that the original wiring would not power the pump and he cut off the fuel pump connector and manually rewired the fuel pump to a ground post and directly to the coil. I see now why that is bad.

I'm also starting to realize that maybe my fuel pump is bad. I tried a second time to connect the positive lead of the fuel pump directly to the positive battery post. I don't hear it pumping, I don't see any movement in the fuel in the clear fuel filter ahead of the pump, and I see nothing come out of the jets in the carb as I pump the throttle cable. I'm thinking my fuel pump is not working. If it's power up, should I hear it pumping? I remember hearing the pump come on all the time before, but that was the old FI pump.
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SirAndy
post Nov 11 2019, 05:27 PM
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QUOTE(pastormacman @ Nov 11 2019, 03:24 PM) *
I'm also starting to realize that maybe my fuel pump is bad.

I used the CB rotary pump below on my carbed 2056 and it worked much better than the facet pumps (a lot quieter too):
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3193.htm

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surfdogskier
post Nov 11 2019, 06:00 PM
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QUOTE(pastormacman @ Nov 11 2019, 07:24 PM) *

That link to SirAndy's instructions was very helpful. I saved it to my computer for future reference as well. I'm going to wire my fuel pump up according to that diagram. I can see now that my mechanic friend knew that the original wiring would not power the pump and he cut off the fuel pump connector and manually rewired the fuel pump to a ground post and directly to the coil. I see now why that is bad.

I'm also starting to realize that maybe my fuel pump is bad. I tried a second time to connect the positive lead of the fuel pump directly to the positive battery post. I don't hear it pumping, I don't see any movement in the fuel in the clear fuel filter ahead of the pump, and I see nothing come out of the jets in the carb as I pump the throttle cable. I'm thinking my fuel pump is not working. If it's power up, should I hear it pumping? I remember hearing the pump come on all the time before, but that was the old FI pump.

If you don't hear it pumping when you direct wire it to the battery, it is probably bad. You will definitely hear it. Make sure you have the ground wire going to a good source. I used SirAndys instructions to also do my mine when I just recently converted to carbs. I ran the ground like shown but had to find another power source in the board that worked with the key switch. Mine just stopped working. I forgot which one I used but it was in the same plug. Just add a 15amp fuse inline and you should be good to go once you change out your pump.
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pastormacman
post Nov 11 2019, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE(SirAndy @ Nov 11 2019, 03:27 PM) *
I used the CB rotary pump below on my carbed 2056 and it worked much better than the facet pumps (a lot quieter too):
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3193.htm

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

I see that this unit comes with a filter already attached (the description says that removal of the attached filter voids the warranty) I'm assuming this whole unit would replace Both the pump and filter I already have right?
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surfdogskier
post Nov 11 2019, 06:05 PM
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I just found this which I saved on my computer. Life saver that was given on a post when I was having trouble. Your fuel pump power is pin 13. Mine didn't work so I connected to pin 5 (I think) which worked with the key on and off. Works like a charm ever since.


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rhodyguy
post Nov 11 2019, 06:07 PM
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More likely than not, that facet pump pressure is unregulated and the pressure is too high for your carbs. There was a long thread about fuel pump power recently. Pulling pump power off of the coil is a bad idea. You will blow other fuses. Is the bullet fuse in place on the relay board?

Correct on the pump/filter. Screw type clamps are not used. A hassle to change the filter. Replace the short hose piece and get some shouldered clamps for the hoses.
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surfdogskier
post Nov 11 2019, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE(pastormacman @ Nov 11 2019, 08:04 PM) *

QUOTE(SirAndy @ Nov 11 2019, 03:27 PM) *
I used the CB rotary pump below on my carbed 2056 and it worked much better than the facet pumps (a lot quieter too):
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3193.htm

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

I see that this unit comes with a filter already attached (the description says that removal of the attached filter voids the warranty) I'm assuming this whole unit would replace Both the pump and filter I already have right?

That is the same one I put one. Yes, the filter is attached and all one unit.
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rhodyguy
post Nov 11 2019, 07:53 PM
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Is the pump connected to the original wires?
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