Elec Air Cond, PMS Options

[76-914]

96a just means you will be hitting the backup storage, battery for the additional Amps. That is going to take a serious wire #4 if it is all copper, and #2 if it is an aluminum or AL - copper clad.

Example

Never used the product just showing an example to make it easier on the next person.

Now time to pop the (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Could be and I'm interested to see just like the rest of us, Stephan. Mark said his experience with them is that they are marginal which leads me to suspect they might require running on high a good amount of the time. Keith's unit will mount within 2-3ft of his battery which is also located in the front, so that helps with the wire size. An advantage that Keith will have over the units that Mark has experienced is the dry climate his will operate in. In skimming over the data for that brand unit I notice it is used for the sleeping area in a Semi Cab which, to me, would indicate night usage. There are however several larger units they sell and some of them surely can handle severe conditions, i.e. TX, OK, LA, FL, etc. I'd like to see how they perform in the heat of the day as well. Keith is a sharp cookie so I'm sure he'll cover all of the bases. So fingers crossed for his success. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Luke M]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

I need a/c in my 6 too. I'll be keeping an eye on this.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Bleyseng]

For a 4 cylinder then sourcing a 70amp bus alternator and having it rebuilt to a higher output might be the ticket to power these electric AC's.

[Steve]

For a 4 cylinder then sourcing a 70amp bus alternator and having it rebuilt to a higher output might be the ticket to power these electric AC's.

There is plenty of room for a compressor on a 4 or water cooler transplant. Why deal with an inefficient electric compressor?

[914e]

For a 4 cylinder then sourcing a 70amp bus alternator and having it rebuilt to a higher output might be the ticket to power these electric AC's.

There is plenty of room for a compressor on a 4 or water cooler transplant. Why deal with an inefficient electric compressor?

An electric compressor can be more efficient since it runs at constant speeds it does not have to be as large as one turned by the engine. In modern cars it is more efficient, plus you have the auto start stop engines now.

A typical modern compressor is said to use about 3kW to drive it, vs the under 1kW for these electric compressors. 12 volts is still tough. The 914 has very old inefficient alternators so it likely a wash.

As I remember the old long 6 cylinder GM compressors used something like 25 HP about 19kW of course it also had about 3-1/2 tons of cooling output.

[SKL1]

I saw 115 on the car thermometer today but I sure as hell wasn't in a 914!! And doubt any AC unit would work in that temp in a 914 or any AC'ed P car...

[ibmiked]

Will it keep up with a Saratoga Top in summer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[wes]

Will it keep up with a Saratoga Top in summer? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) That would be a challenge!

[Cairo94507]

I am destined to sweat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[horizontally-opposed]

Watching the development of these systems with keen interest. Not prepared to spend the $10-15k (installed and sorted) for an electric A/C system, which is the number mentioned by a high-end hot-rod builder, but…

I can see where $5-15k might represent good value for an enthusiast who can only have one "fun" car in the garage and would like to eliminate a primary reason they don't drive it on hot days or long trips—or why they trailer it to events. Whether it's psychological, or a matter of being just plain spoiled/ruined by ice-cold air in my second daily driver, I can see the logic in making a 914 more usable more of the time vs letting it just sit there on hot days or, worse, buying an additional sports car with A/C (probably for more money than $5-15k plus storage, maintenance, insurance, etc).

If the 914 is the only classic car I keep, I am good with that choice—while I love early 911s, 356s, step-nose GTs, Cobra replicas (there, I said it...), early GTIs, and a whole host of other cars, my appreciation for the 914's concept and design have only grown with time and are still growing 31 years into this ride. But while I never wish for power locks in my 914, nor much in the way of a modern car's conveniences, good A/C would be a game-changer. If the disposable income presents itself, and if it can be done without adding a lot of weight while using the existing late dash vents, I might be interested…

[76-914]

I saw 115 on the car thermometer today but I sure as hell wasn't in a 914!! And doubt any AC unit would work in that temp in a 914 or any AC'ed P car...

I'm pretty sure mine would since the compressor was previously on a station wagon with dual sunroofs. If the day comes it won't handle Mother Nature I'm switching over to R-12.

[tygaboy]

Does anyone know which evaporator they're hiding in that console? I've got an LS so the alternator output isn't an issue for me. I'm limited by the physical space I have left to locate the evap unit.
Here's the eval unit I bought. The outlets in the above pics look suspiciously familiar: same unit turned on its end?

https://www.southernrods.com/a-c-and-heat-c...mplete-kit.html

[76-914]

Does anyone know which evaporator they're hiding in that console? I've got an LS so the alternator output isn't an issue for me. I'm limited by the physical space I have left to locate the evap unit.
Here's the eval unit I bought. The outlets in the above pics look suspiciously familiar: same unit turned on its end?

https://www.southernrods.com/a-c-and-heat-c...mplete-kit.html

They'd need to modify the condensate drain tray but possibly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Jonny Retrofit]

Keith and I are playing around with different options all based on the Benling DM18A7 Electric compressor, aftermarket condenser, 911 condenser and off the shelf evaporators. Hopefully in a month we should be able to post something. Classic retrofit said they would sell this console evaporator separately. I am seeing the Benling electric compressor on evil bay for under $800.00. So if your a hobbyist the total solution is not that expensive if you piece mail it yourself. Do the math.... Benling compressor on the lowest setting is 40 amps + evaporator fans, condenser or oil cooler fans if your using a 911 condenser in front of your six oil cooler. A 2.7 alternator is 70 amps and a 3.2 alternator is 90 amps. With LED headlights, what else are you powering....??
This makes sense for a six conversion, for a four or water cooled power plant your better off with a standard belt driven compressor. Check out my blog for a picture of my condenser setup. The 911 condenser is about the length and height of a Mazda cooler, so you would need to modify your GT shroud to make it fit.

I have been emailing with Keith.

We started ‘playing’ with these compressors five years ago. What they don’t tell you is that the current used is not just proportional to compressor speed, it is drastically affected by system pressure which of course is related to ambient temperature.

It is not the case that low speed = 40A, high speed = 90A period. It varies wildly with ambient. Also, because the alternator output drops at idle, the voltage drops and the current rises which causes what we call the ‘death spiral’, which results in compressor shut off. In the race car world where these units have been used, it has taken cars out of races due to low voltage.

It took 2 years of development and testing to devise a robust software control strategy to safely manage the power required dynamically. Our ECU is always trying to minimise the power used against the cooling required ( which it does using temperature sensors to assess demand ). The ECU drives the compressor at variable speeds to regulate the current consumption. We are still fine tuning the software and we release software updates based on user feedback (thanks to our customers and our Arizona and Florida partners).

In a nutshell, What you are paying for is our blood, sweat and tears in developing a control system that allows the compressor to ‘play nice’, not drain your battery, not roast your alternator.

Although the compressor we supply might look like others available online, it is not the same unit.

[76-914]

Keith and I are playing around with different options all based on the Benling DM18A7 Electric compressor, aftermarket condenser, 911 condenser and off the shelf evaporators. Hopefully in a month we should be able to post something. Classic retrofit said they would sell this console evaporator separately. I am seeing the Benling electric compressor on evil bay for under $800.00. So if your a hobbyist the total solution is not that expensive if you piece mail it yourself. Do the math.... Benling compressor on the lowest setting is 40 amps + evaporator fans, condenser or oil cooler fans if your using a 911 condenser in front of your six oil cooler. A 2.7 alternator is 70 amps and a 3.2 alternator is 90 amps. With LED headlights, what else are you powering....??
This makes sense for a six conversion, for a four or water cooled power plant your better off with a standard belt driven compressor. Check out my blog for a picture of my condenser setup. The 911 condenser is about the length and height of a Mazda cooler, so you would need to modify your GT shroud to make it fit.

I have been emailing with Keith.

We started ‘playing’ with these compressors five years ago. What they don’t tell you is that the current used is not just proportional to compressor speed, it is drastically affected by system pressure which of course is related to ambient temperature.

It is not the case that low speed = 40A, high speed = 90A period. It varies wildly with ambient. Also, because the alternator output drops at idle, the voltage drops and the current rises which causes what we call the ‘death spiral’, which results in compressor shut off. In the race car world where these units have been used, it has taken cars out of races due to low voltage.

It took 2 years of development and testing to devise a robust software control strategy to safely manage the power required dynamically. Our ECU is always trying to minimise the power used against the cooling required ( which it does using temperature sensors to assess demand ). The ECU drives the compressor at variable speeds to regulate the current consumption. We are still fine tuning the software and we release software updates based on user feedback (thanks to our customers and our Arizona and Florida partners).

In a nutshell, What you are paying for is our blood, sweat and tears in developing a control system that allows the compressor to ‘play nice’, not drain your battery, not roast your alternator.

Although the compressor we supply might look like others available online, it is not the same unit.

Hows does it perform @ temps above 35C? Hi Way/ City? In Southern California traffic is stop n go. More stopping than going. Same goes for Austin, Dallas and Miama (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Jonny Retrofit]

Hows does it perform @ temps above 35C? Hi Way/ City? In Southern California traffic is stop n go. More stopping than going. Same goes for Austin, Dallas and Miama (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Our system does not rely on 'ram air' for the condenser. We supply 6 phase alternators with a 75A idle output so stop/go is not really an issue.

Towards the end of this video I stop the car...

https://youtu.be/735lNeSgfGs

[Steve]

Hows does it perform @ temps above 35C? Hi Way/ City? In Southern California traffic is stop n go. More stopping than going. Same goes for Austin, Dallas and Miama (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Our system does not rely on 'ram air' for the condenser. We supply 6 phase alternators with a 75A idle output so stop/go is not really an issue.

Towards the end of this video I stop the car...

https://youtu.be/735lNeSgfGs

Jonny,
Curious for reference, what does a stock 3.2 alternator supply at idle?

[GregAmy]

There are effective ways of storing and managing vehicle voltage for limited applciations, such as auto racing. In SCCA Prod racing, for example, many of us run EFI on total loss systems that require consistent voltage; the solution is appropriate battery/capacitor capacity and Race Energy Performance's Total Discharge Controller.

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30

A similar design could be considered for management of the limited times that an electric A/C system may be used in low-RPM situations.

However, we're now getting so far into the pale for 50-yr-old, generally-limited-use classic cars, that I have to wonder where the cut off of the silliness should be... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Steve]

There are effective ways of storing and managing vehicle voltage for limited applciations, such as auto racing. In SCCA Prod racing, for example, many of us run EFI on total loss systems that require consistent voltage; the solution is appropriate battery/capacitor capacity and Race Energy Performance's Total Discharge Controller.

https://raceenergyperformance.com/collectio...products/tdc-30

A similar design could be considered for management of the limited times that an electric A/C system may be used in low-RPM situations.

However, we're now getting so far into the pale for 50-yr-old, generally-limited-use classic cars, that I have to wonder where the cut off of the silliness should be... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) There are also battery isolators for RV/s, but then have to run another battery, which adds weight and space. I have seen 914's with seat warmers, electric mirrors, electric door locks and electric windows. Where does it end? You mine as well buy a modern car, like a Boxster. A nice hidden AC system like Classic Retrofit's system, would be a nice addition to our cars. Looking forward to see what they come up with.

[76-914]

The cabin temp got down to 77-78F in a fairly forgiving climate. I think the "Electric Cool-Aid" Acid Test (pun intended) will be established once Keith has his up and running. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)