can you buy a crate 2056?, looking to just pop in an engine versus rebulding Options

[Rand]

Don't feed the ignorance.

[porschetub]

When it starts costing more then /6 engines
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

Think you are missing the point somewhat,the top builders charge what they do so the motors aren't potential hand grenades,these motors are high performance builds with a lot of setup time,machining and the best components money can buy.
Build a high performance 911 motor and you can easily exceed the cost of a Raby 4 engine if done by the top builders of them,its all relative ,question is what do you want to spend for 'peace of mind" ??.

[Type 47]

So...can't just click on GMParts.com (for ex: could be 2056parst.com) and order up a 2056.

Well I've got the 62k original engine that had the FI thrown into a box and some Webers put on and also 2 other core 2.0's along with 3-4 trannies.

I guess I'm going to become acoupleof2litersandsomenewtrannies.com

[thelogo]

When it starts costing more then /6 engines
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

Number of cylinders is immaterial. Restoring a 356 engine can cost way more than a six, a Polopolus engine runs $25-40K and all those numbers pale in comparison to the 4 cam Fuhrmann engine.






A $20K hot type 4 can be a cost saving measure.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif)

Something is wrong here .you could put 2x 1.7 in for that
Joined at the crank or in front with a axle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[McMark]

Inundated is the right word. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If you're not interested in a grumpy rant, skip on to something else...

But here's my thoughts about Type4 engines after building a lot of them. It's harder and harder to build these engines professionally. They take a lot of time to build right, and time costs money. There's corners that can be cut, but as a professional, those risks aren't worth the potential headache. So the only true option is to build an engine as tight and reliable as possible. So the difference between a 2.1 (2056) and a 1.7 build is just the cost of parts. The build process is identical. And realistically, the 2.3 (2270) isn't that much more work. But doing all that means a pricey engine every time.

Then add on the fact that part qualities aren't reliable. Core parts aren't always good (you can never guarantee a leak free engine, even though everyone wants one). And subcontractors are really hard to find. I haven't taken on any engine builds in awhile mostly because getting the cases line-bored is nearly impossible. I don't know if I plan to do any more builds unless I invest in a line-bore tool and do them myself. And that sounds like a new fresh hell to deal with.

I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips. I've had to take my personal (cherry picked over time) parts and use them on customer engines because my subcontractors 'took too long'. So unless I raise my prices even more, it's not financially worth it to take on that much risk.

And then we can start talking about how you take a well built $10k engine and hand it to a customer to have 'their friend who knows carbs', or the local 'VW shop' to bolt a set brand new carbs on it. And they don't know all the tricks new carbs take to set up right before you even bolt them on. So you end up with a set of rings that don't seat right, and oil consumption issues, and guess who gets a call... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) So then you want the 2270 with MicroSquirt installed and tuned, and that conversation starts at $25k.

I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.

[horizontally-opposed]

Inundated is the right word. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If you're not interested in a grumpy rant, skip on to something else...

But here's my thoughts about Type4 engines after building a lot of them. It's harder and harder to build these engines professionally. They take a lot of time to build right, and time costs money. There's corners that can be cut, but as a professional, those risks aren't worth the potential headache. So the only true option is to build an engine as tight and reliable as possible. So the difference between a 2.1 (2056) and a 1.7 build is just the cost of parts. The build process is identical. And realistically, the 2.3 (2270) isn't that much more work. But doing all that means a pricey engine every time.

Then add on the fact that part qualities aren't reliable. Core parts aren't always good (you can never guarantee a leak free engine, even though everyone wants one). And subcontractors are really hard to find. I haven't taken on any engine builds in awhile mostly because getting the cases line-bored is nearly impossible. I don't know if I plan to do any more builds unless I invest in a line-bore tool and do them myself. And that sounds like a new fresh hell to deal with.

I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips. I've had to take my personal (cherry picked over time) parts and use them on customer engines because my subcontractors 'took too long'. So unless I raise my prices even more, it's not financially worth it to take on that much risk.

And then we can start talking about how you take a well built $10k engine and hand it to a customer to have 'their friend who knows carbs', or the local 'VW shop' to bolt a set brand new carbs on it. And they don't know all the tricks new carbs take to set up right before you even bolt them on. So you end up with a set of rings that don't seat right, and oil consumption issues, and guess who gets a call... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) So then you want the 2270 with MicroSquirt installed and tuned, and that conversation starts at $25k.

I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.

^ Sounds about right, matching up with some things I've heard from 911 engine builders of late—and the supplier & subcontractor issues are not limited to Type IV engines these days.

Threats of lawsuits over oil drips from an air-cooled engine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

[mrholland2]

So...can't just click on GMParts.com (for ex: could be 2056parst.com) and order up a 2056.

Well I've got the 62k original engine that had the FI thrown into a box and some Webers put on and also 2 other core 2.0's along with 3-4 trannies.

I guess I'm going to become acoupleof2litersandsomenewtrannies.com

I'm not sure I'd try that website at work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[Superhawk996]

I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips.

I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

God bless anyone that is running a professional shop in this day and age. Anytime I contemplate doing paid work, I come back to these kinds of pitfalls.

[porschetub]

Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.

[thelogo]

Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.

Please specify they have a long block with ? Steel liners ? For 7.5

And i somehow doubt the one mcmark quotes at 25k is not using steel liners ?
For that $ its nikasil

And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?

But then again i daily a toyota so ...toke

[VaccaRabite]

And i somehow doubt the one mcmark quotes at 25k is not using steel liners ?
For that $ its nikasil

And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?

A shop built 2270 with Microsquirt installed and tuned at $25K is a bargain.
The Parts alone, assuming that you are using HAM heads and Nikkies and Marks MS2 kit is approaching $15K+. Then the time spent actually machining the parts, balance, assembly and tuning... And you have to eek some profit in there somewhere too.

These are NOT mass produced motors using brand new parts. These are using 50 year old parts that have been heat cycled and need to be cut and welded and moved back into shape. There is no way to do it cheap using quality parts ad not cutting corners.


Zach

[McMark]

And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) I always get a good laugh from that... The cheaper the car, the less the engine should cost? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[falcor75]

Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.

Please specify they have a long block with ? Steel liners ? For 7.5

And i somehow doubt the one mcmark quotes at 25k is not using steel liners ?
For that $ its nikasil

And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?

But then again i daily a toyota so ...toke

So you drive a cheap 914, most of the people paying for a new engine have already spent as much or more into restoring the bodywork, paintwork, interior and suspension etc in their cars. Then, a built and tuned turnkey engine is comparetively reasonable at that cost. Oh and dont forget you wanna rebuild your gearbox too, thats another 2k for someone to do it for you aslong as its in half decent shape to start with.

[Superhawk996]

And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) I always get a good laugh from that... The cheaper the car, the less the engine should cost? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

They didn't call 914's the Poor Man's Porsche without cause.

It's a death spiral really. Buy a $10K car hobby car but then the engine pops and you're looking at a substantial repair bill if you can't do the work yourself.

Next thing you know it has some 1/2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) fixes and it's now a $6K car.

Then it needs clutch work and trans work done and now its a $4k car that never gets fixed properly.

So goes the life of the average 914. Same thing is going on right now with 928's, 944's etc. They are in the death spiral state where guys that can barely afford one, end up with one, and then neglect proper maintanace and repair.

It happened with 356's and early 911's but in those cases they have come out the other side looking pretty good market price wise for the good survivors.

914's only just now starting to get their due recognition.

[horizontally-opposed]

A few years ago, I watched a brouhaha over the cost of rebuilding a four-cylinder E30 M3 engine—which was compared/contrasted with rebuilding an M5 engine of the same period. Turns out, both are pretty trick. And both benefit from the attention of someone who knows how to get the best from them as well as what to watch out for.

Like every other high-performance engine.

When considering the costs associated with rebuilding a Type IV engine, it might be instructive to consider them against those for a 356 engine, a 911 flat six, various BMW or Datsun straight sixes, and Chevy V8s to a similar level. I suspect the cost of "simple" VW or Fiat four-cylinder engines built to a high level will surprise many enthusiasts.

In the end, it comes down to parts and labor—and a lot of an engine rebuild is labor. So if the person doing the labor lives somewhere that has a high cost of living—or depends on vendors that do—look out.

[914werke]

Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.

No way, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) there is a guy over on the bird (912 forum) that was arguing the ease &
inn-expense of building a /4. He claims it can be done for $200. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[914_teener]

And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) I always get a good laugh from that... The cheaper the car, the less the engine should cost? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Saw this and the thread gave me a bit of a chuckle with the title.

It has nothing to do with where anybody lives. The idea that you can buy a crate anything nowdays is like going down to the corner store and pick up a type 4 engine in a cardboard box.

I.ve seen Mark's work in person and the idea of a crate engine and professionally built means that someone can make their living doing that. The VALUE of this goes unappreciated....when I say that what that means is that the value of his work and abilities is undervalued to someone who wants a crate engine.

Mostly....and especially with 914.s they are now mostly a collector car and the reason I sold mine. I.m an enthusiast, not a car collector. My old 914 is somewhere in Michigan now in a collectors garage. When perforated panel right behind the battery tray needs to be redone I referred him to Mark.s shop because I value his skills and don.t complain how much it costs unless I plan on doing it myself.

Good luck with the crate type IV engine.

[DRPHIL914]

---- this is why you will see more and more suby and Ls swaps..... like it or not, idiots spoil it for the rest. it only takes one to spoil it for a builder, law suits over a oil drip freaking stupid but i believe it because we have a sue happy society.

Mark, i cant say i blame you but it does suck to see it happen, loosing all the good builders.

so i expect we will see more and more of the h2O pumper swaps...... heck even considering an LS car as my other car for sure......

[thelogo]

Thats just a story right


Guys dont really sue over oil leaks . i mean (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif)

[black73]

.....I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.

Add this to the list of 914 quirks...

Engine too tricky for the pros to build but just right for the beginner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)