If you can buy a crate engine, who sells them?

Talk to @McMark .

McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???

Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?

Pretty sure that Raby and McMark are still in the Type 4 engine building business,... the question is how much do you want to spend, and, more importantly, how long can you wait. I guarantee both guys are inundated with jobs.

That said, there are many others on this very site that can build you an engine. Hopefully, a couple will post. I would also put a WTB ad in the classifieds, as someone probably has something close to your specs that is ready to install, but they might be leaning towards something else.

Finally, if you go to The Samba, you can also find multiple vendors who build Type 4's. Just do your homework before you pull the trigger.

Less to do with a T4 being a less than optimal powerplant. Has everything to do with the cost of parts and cost of skilled labor.

Current situation is that many are infatuated with trying to make a comparison between modern water pumpers HP output vs. 1960's & early 70's aircooled technology (which was really 40's technology )

Easier to cut up a 914 to make a Porscharu with a junkyard motor than to buy a properly built and sorted 2056 that makes less HP.

Bottom line comes down to how much you value a vintage 914 as it was orginally conceived and built.

I cringe to mention it . but scat engines are technically a 2056 crate motor . i wouldnt trust it but other run them

Look for a guy going to a /6 and make a generous offer for the /4

Other wise you'll be spending tons of time and money for just a nice motor . not a powerhouse


Im considering selling my just broken in 2336 . its
Plug and play from carbs to headers (nice motor)
But that could be a pretty narrow market. With that beast

And i imagine after i sell the big 4
It will cost as much as the sale price just to rebuild the original 1.7 and ill have about half the power for the same price ....

Beware of some of the T4 rebuilds on the Samba.....some are way too cheap and doing generally tell too much about headwork....which we all know is the weakest point in these engines.
I don't believe anyone has performance longblocks ready to go,the better guys build to order cause there is always different customer needs.
Go to would be FAT or mcmark ,known good builders ,not sure what RAT is going but that will be expensive.....don't know the OP's budget ??

Buy a T4 Store kit and build it yourself.

Maybe just lucky but I bought a 2056 Fat Preformance balanced/blueprinted Stroker with 1,000 miles on it from a member here who did a Corvette swap. Great engine all I did was swap out the empi Webber’s for 45 Dellorto’s and change the oil, couldn’t be happier. As mentioned above put a want to buy add for what you want, you never know till you ask!

That’s crap. McMark didn’t bail. He’s just not overtly active.

He emailed me back a few months after I inquired about an engine. He's not even taking wait list requests right now. May be great engines, but useless if you can't buy one!

I sent you a PM about an engine, Al

The $ for Jake Raby is not found in 2056s. Bigger displacement and fixes for Boxster engines.

He told me his engines start at $20K. Sounds crazy but I think it’s more suited to the 356 crowd who want a hot rod engine without modifying their stock engine.

Add in aluminum cyls and a set of Hoffman heads and the price explodes. Case machine work? What ever the market will bear. Shipping to and fro adds up.

$20,000 in 356 land isn't that eye opening, so you're probably right.

Starts at 2270 cc? Then that requires other expenses to optimize performance. Most #s are in the thousands. Multiples of.

When it starts costing more then /6 engines
and

To be 100% clear, I only have 100% respect for McMark. I would buy from him first without hesitation. That's why I said it!!
But it isn't crap if he isn't here. I miss the bro on here! Don't try to turn my post negative.

Number of cylinders is immaterial. Restoring a 356 engine can cost way more than a six, a Polopolus engine runs $25-40K and all those numbers pale in comparison to the 4 cam Fuhrmann engine. A $20K hot type 4 can be a cost saving measure.

Don't feed the ignorance.

Think you are missing the point somewhat,the top builders charge what they do so the motors aren't potential hand grenades,these motors are high performance builds with a lot of setup time,machining and the best components money can buy.
Build a high performance 911 motor and you can easily exceed the cost of a Raby 4 engine if done by the top builders of them,its all relative ,question is what do you want to spend for 'peace of mind" ??.

So...can't just click on GMParts.com (for ex: could be 2056parst.com) and order up a 2056.

Well I've got the 62k original engine that had the FI thrown into a box and some Webers put on and also 2 other core 2.0's along with 3-4 trannies.

I guess I'm going to become acoupleof2litersandsomenewtrannies.com

Something is wrong here .you could put 2x 1.7 in for that
Joined at the crank or in front with a axle

Inundated is the right word.

If you're not interested in a grumpy rant, skip on to something else...

But here's my thoughts about Type4 engines after building a lot of them. It's harder and harder to build these engines professionally. They take a lot of time to build right, and time costs money. There's corners that can be cut, but as a professional, those risks aren't worth the potential headache. So the only true option is to build an engine as tight and reliable as possible. So the difference between a 2.1 (2056) and a 1.7 build is just the cost of parts. The build process is identical. And realistically, the 2.3 (2270) isn't that much more work. But doing all that means a pricey engine every time.

Then add on the fact that part qualities aren't reliable. Core parts aren't always good (you can never guarantee a leak free engine, even though everyone wants one). And subcontractors are really hard to find. I haven't taken on any engine builds in awhile mostly because getting the cases line-bored is nearly impossible. I don't know if I plan to do any more builds unless I invest in a line-bore tool and do them myself. And that sounds like a new fresh hell to deal with.

I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips. I've had to take my personal (cherry picked over time) parts and use them on customer engines because my subcontractors 'took too long'. So unless I raise my prices even more, it's not financially worth it to take on that much risk.

And then we can start talking about how you take a well built $10k engine and hand it to a customer to have 'their friend who knows carbs', or the local 'VW shop' to bolt a set brand new carbs on it. And they don't know all the tricks new carbs take to set up right before you even bolt them on. So you end up with a set of rings that don't seat right, and oil consumption issues, and guess who gets a call... So then you want the 2270 with MicroSquirt installed and tuned, and that conversation starts at $25k.

I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.

^ Sounds about right, matching up with some things I've heard from 911 engine builders of late—and the supplier & subcontractor issues are not limited to Type IV engines these days.

Threats of lawsuits over oil drips from an air-cooled engine.

I'm not sure I'd try that website at work

God bless anyone that is running a professional shop in this day and age. Anytime I contemplate doing paid work, I come back to these kinds of pitfalls.

Quick search shows FAT have a 2056 long block for 7.5K ,good value based on there experience with these engines.
Appears to be as near to a crate motor as you find around,seems to be well speced in terms of parts and machining....certainly worth the OP checking it out.
The only one I looked @ was the LN (t4 store?) was a bus motor kit @ 7.9K but appeared to be more upmarket parts wise than the Fat offering but as mentioned only a kit.

Please specify they have a long block with ? Steel liners ? For 7.5

And i somehow doubt the one mcmark quotes at 25k is not using steel liners ?
For that $ its nikasil

And not to beat the drum but i could never understand all these engines that cost 3x more then the cars themselfs ?

But then again i daily a toyota so ...toke

A shop built 2270 with Microsquirt installed and tuned at $25K is a bargain.
The Parts alone, assuming that you are using HAM heads and Nikkies and Marks MS2 kit is approaching $15K+. Then the time spent actually machining the parts, balance, assembly and tuning... And you have to eek some profit in there somewhere too.

These are NOT mass produced motors using brand new parts. These are using 50 year old parts that have been heat cycled and need to be cut and welded and moved back into shape. There is no way to do it cheap using quality parts ad not cutting corners.


Zach

I always get a good laugh from that... The cheaper the car, the less the engine should cost?

So you drive a cheap 914, most of the people paying for a new engine have already spent as much or more into restoring the bodywork, paintwork, interior and suspension etc in their cars. Then, a built and tuned turnkey engine is comparetively reasonable at that cost. Oh and dont forget you wanna rebuild your gearbox too, thats another 2k for someone to do it for you aslong as its in half decent shape to start with.

They didn't call 914's the Poor Man's Porsche without cause.

It's a death spiral really. Buy a $10K car hobby car but then the engine pops and you're looking at a substantial repair bill if you can't do the work yourself.

Next thing you know it has some 1/2 fixes and it's now a $6K car.

Then it needs clutch work and trans work done and now its a $4k car that never gets fixed properly.

So goes the life of the average 914. Same thing is going on right now with 928's, 944's etc. They are in the death spiral state where guys that can barely afford one, end up with one, and then neglect proper maintanace and repair.

It happened with 356's and early 911's but in those cases they have come out the other side looking pretty good market price wise for the good survivors.

914's only just now starting to get their due recognition.

A few years ago, I watched a brouhaha over the cost of rebuilding a four-cylinder E30 M3 engine—which was compared/contrasted with rebuilding an M5 engine of the same period. Turns out, both are pretty trick. And both benefit from the attention of someone who knows how to get the best from them as well as what to watch out for.

Like every other high-performance engine.

When considering the costs associated with rebuilding a Type IV engine, it might be instructive to consider them against those for a 356 engine, a 911 flat six, various BMW or Datsun straight sixes, and Chevy V8s to a similar level. I suspect the cost of "simple" VW or Fiat four-cylinder engines built to a high level will surprise many enthusiasts.

In the end, it comes down to parts and labor—and a lot of an engine rebuild is labor. So if the person doing the labor lives somewhere that has a high cost of living—or depends on vendors that do—look out.

No way, there is a guy over on the bird (912 forum) that was arguing the ease &
inn-expense of building a /4. He claims it can be done for $200.

Saw this and the thread gave me a bit of a chuckle with the title.

It has nothing to do with where anybody lives. The idea that you can buy a crate anything nowdays is like going down to the corner store and pick up a type 4 engine in a cardboard box.

I.ve seen Mark's work in person and the idea of a crate engine and professionally built means that someone can make their living doing that. The VALUE of this goes unappreciated....when I say that what that means is that the value of his work and abilities is undervalued to someone who wants a crate engine.

Mostly....and especially with 914.s they are now mostly a collector car and the reason I sold mine. I.m an enthusiast, not a car collector. My old 914 is somewhere in Michigan now in a collectors garage. When perforated panel right behind the battery tray needs to be redone I referred him to Mark.s shop because I value his skills and don.t complain how much it costs unless I plan on doing it myself.

Good luck with the crate type IV engine.

---- this is why you will see more and more suby and Ls swaps..... like it or not, idiots spoil it for the rest. it only takes one to spoil it for a builder, law suits over a oil drip freaking stupid but i believe it because we have a sue happy society.

Mark, i cant say i blame you but it does suck to see it happen, loosing all the good builders.

so i expect we will see more and more of the h2O pumper swaps...... heck even considering an LS car as my other car for sure......

Thats just a story right


Guys dont really sue over oil leaks . i mean

Add this to the list of 914 quirks...

Engine too tricky for the pros to build but just right for the beginner.

Now I remember why I stopped posting as much...

I have built a few type 4's over the years and just like all engines take time to do it right. Nowdays you need a stash of assorted parts too just because so much used stuff is garbage.
Not having oil leaks is a science too not the amount of red hi-temp gasket maker. I have turned down several requests to build folks a engine (esp. bus ones) no thanks.

The part I hate to see the most is the possibility that these skills sets and fonts of knowledge won't be passed down/earned by the next generation. While I realize that building top notch air cooled engines is very labor and time intensive, it seems that if guys like McMark, Raby, etc. could find the right young hands and minds that would be willing to apprentice under them, these engines could be produced more readily, and, after they decide to "hang it up", the tradition will continue.

At some point, I think you have to bring more hands in help takeover some of the workload. I also realize finding good people is another whole can of worms. Others might say that these cars are dinosaurs and there just isn't enough future in it. I disagree...it seems that 356's, 914's, VW's etc are actually garnering more interest.

I see so much talent, skill, and craftsmanship out there, that it is mind-boggling. I hate to name names, because someone will always feel slighted, but when you see the product turned out by guys like McMark, Raby, Bruce Stone, Marty from MSDS, the whole 914 Rubber crew, Ben MB911, Jeff Bowlsby, and I'll throw Stefan's name in there from GTS,..(EDIT....don't know how I forgot Chris Foley and Len Hoffman....but ya...)I can only hope that all of this experience and talent carries forward. All of these folks are true artisans. I don't even want to start naming names of 914 gurus of on this site that are masters in their own right, but maybe don't produce product for general consumption. I also know I've left out many names....maybe others can add.... just my 2 cents....

Rebuild prices go up, 914 prices go up. Its just the way it goes, and the cycle of classic cars, 25yrs ago you could get a decent 914 for $5k and get plenty of OE parts, early 911's were still under $10k in soCal... that's all days gone now, everything is more expensive and harder to source, factory parts have dried up and aftermarket stuff is hit and miss.

When the prices escalate, like when you see early 911's going for near 100k, suddenly the economy of scale is much different, that $25k engine isn't such a ridiculous proposition.

This will continue to drive prices up IMO

Don't kid yourself that these /4 builds are in the hot 911 engine range either--get a load of a high end 3.6 rebuild and you'll $hit yourself, heck there was a WEVO 915 listed here recently and just that was $15k... you could be in a engine/trans >$60k not including the car or the cores.

One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.

McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.

Seems excessive to charge 25k because you need to make money . but these are somewhat of a boutique engine (big 4 )

You should hear the baywindow guys bitch about spending $1000 on a rebuilt engine. They are the same engine except for the heads and Djet stuff. Still time consuming to do right

Mark...you are spot on.

i agree, although this has slowly been changing, remember it wasnt always that way with 356's or even 911's, its why you still find some that were dumped and parked years ago due to what ever, but "wasnt worth the cost of fixing". so this slowly may change. Heck, i bought my 914 for $2k and was told it would never be worth what it would cost to repair the rust in the longs and floor, that was only 11 years ago!, now its insured for 2x what i have in it and been offered that before, and others like it but less done in their restore have been sold for more. - my point is dont get short sited and throw your motor a way due to cost of repair vs value, but others that do see the value will and are arriving on the scene to do just that and those people will spend that $$ to restore that numbers matching motor and trans, - you just have to channel that buyer and no in general its probably not this crowd in general.
But it makes me wonder what i will do in the next few years when it comes time. i will need to atleast refresh the heads so been saving up to do just that with HAM heads etc, but if Mark wont build it i have access to the manuals etc might be a do it myself project. - i would rther pay the pro. .............