There are still many 356, 911, etc engine builders who can build a top notch type 4. You just won’t get the $5k mcmark price.

Seems excessive to charge 25k because you need to make money . but these are somewhat of a boutique engine (big 4 )

Now I remember why I stopped posting as much...

I don't understand this either. Everyone goes on about how it's not easy to do correctly, but then recommends spending 10k on parts to do it yourself?

I think about half the people here miss the sarcasm because they're still learning and have some sincere questions. You talk about a "914 engine", which in truth is an 80hp engine that shouldn't be hard for a - let's not say beginner, but an amateur - to build. But so many people here are running a big 4 with an output closer to the limit of what the design can do, or a 911 engine that's a generation removed from what's really a "914 engine" and it's a different beast.

I love the idea of building the engine myself, but $8-10k for the parts alone with a risk of screwing something up isn't enticing.

I am not an experienced builder. I took my time, made one serious mistake from which I was able to recover, and was pretty happy with the result and the experience.

Just as a data point, I spent a little over $5400 on all parts and machining services when I did my 2056 last year.

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The huge variable here is labor cost and a professional shop's overhead costs.

If you are doing the work yourself, you can spend 100+ hours if need be to do a basic stock type 4 rebuid decently. Thousands of 914 owners have done it with nothing more than the Tom Wilson book, dedication, discipline to not take shortcuts, and to use proper tools (torque wrench! ! !). That labor cost is nothing.

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i agree, although this has slowly been changing, remember it wasnt always that way with 356's or even 911's, its why you still find some that were dumped and parked years ago due to what ever, but "wasnt worth the cost of fixing". so this slowly may change. Heck, i bought my 914 for $2k and was told it would never be worth what it would cost to repair the rust in the longs and floor, that was only 11 years ago!, now its insured for 2x what i have in it and been offered that before, and others like it but less done in their restore have been sold for more. - my point is dont get short sited and throw your motor a way due to cost of repair vs value, but others that do see the value will and are arriving on the scene to do just that and those people will spend that $$ to restore that numbers matching motor and trans, - you just have to channel that buyer and no in general its probably not this crowd in general.
But it makes me wonder what i will do in the next few years when it comes time. i will need to atleast refresh the heads so been saving up to do just that with HAM heads etc, but if Mark wont build it i have access to the manuals etc might be a do it myself project. - i would rther pay the pro. .............

Inundated is the right word.

If you're not interested in a grumpy rant, skip on to something else...

But here's my thoughts about Type4 engines after building a lot of them. It's harder and harder to build these engines professionally. They take a lot of time to build right, and time costs money. There's corners that can be cut, but as a professional, those risks aren't worth the potential headache. So the only true option is to build an engine as tight and reliable as possible. So the difference between a 2.1 (2056) and a 1.7 build is just the cost of parts. The build process is identical. And realistically, the 2.3 (2270) isn't that much more work. But doing all that means a pricey engine every time.

Then add on the fact that part qualities aren't reliable. Core parts aren't always good (you can never guarantee a leak free engine, even though everyone wants one). And subcontractors are really hard to find. I haven't taken on any engine builds in awhile mostly because getting the cases line-bored is nearly impossible. I don't know if I plan to do any more builds unless I invest in a line-bore tool and do them myself. And that sounds like a new fresh hell to deal with.

I've been threatened with lawsuits for oil drips. I've had to take my personal (cherry picked over time) parts and use them on customer engines because my subcontractors 'took too long'. So unless I raise my prices even more, it's not financially worth it to take on that much risk.

And then we can start talking about how you take a well built $10k engine and hand it to a customer to have 'their friend who knows carbs', or the local 'VW shop' to bolt a set brand new carbs on it. And they don't know all the tricks new carbs take to set up right before you even bolt them on. So you end up with a set of rings that don't seat right, and oil consumption issues, and guess who gets a call... So then you want the 2270 with MicroSquirt installed and tuned, and that conversation starts at $25k.

I love building engines, and I wish I could do more of it. But it's just a minefield for a professional shop.
As Len said, buy a kit and build it yourself.

How much of that was, and/or in what shape were your heads?

Rich, roughly $1700 of that was brand new AA heads, ceramic coated, and prepped by Len Hoffman. To be fair, I don't think you can get them that cheaply anymore.

If you are going to whine about oil leaks, go buy a new car and leave the 914s to the real men with questionable intelligence!

Porsche prices will never be justified on a VW motor.

Trying to make a living building vintage engines is tough. Takes a lot of attention to detail. That's one (of many) big fat reasons why the price is high from the best pros.

I have had a gazillion DIY customers over the years who had very successful builds and every single one of them enjoys their car all the more for the experience.

McMark has been absent too long. I would have said yes first to McMcark. Raby bailed. Everyone is bailing. I guess air cooled fours have proven to be less than optimal power plants. FAT???

Hmm, maybe there's a market left by absence?

Quite the contrary around here..
In fact, other than doing R&D projects with the modern Porsche engines, all I build these days are Aircooled engines..

I stay busier with them, than I want to be. I have gone back to building them all myself, like things used to be 25 years ago. I cross trained all my employees to the more modern Porsche engines, starting back in 2008, and now they are the ones that run that side of the business. I have gone full circle, back to where I started, and what built this business.

About 1/3 of my workload is for Miles Collier, which I have a ton of fun with. I love the challenges of making things perfect, and 100% correct.

The rest is between 356 and T4 work, with the T4 work demand higher than it has been since 2011, or so. My next available completion is currently November 2021 for a T4 engine, as an example. The smallest engine I build is 2,270cc, and I've pretty much moved over to my 2,320cc engine, since everything these days gets LN Nickies cylinders, and its the best 914 combination all around when using these.

I moved the whole Aircooled operation to my second facility, where I work with only one employee. This is a 7,000 Sq Ft facility, where I train Porsche technicians, carry out R&D, and now where I have recreated "Aircooled Heaven". The last piece of that puzzle was moving my vintage Stuska engine dyno, and updating it after 20 years in service. I just finished this move, and major update (with modern data acquisition) two weeks ago. We christened the dyno with my daughter's first T4 engine build, which made 120HP. Not bad for an 8 year old, who had previously only built Go Kart engines.

I'm back, even though I really never left.. Just took a break from the craziness to add some success through diversification.

The last piece of that puzzle was moving my vintage Stuska engine dyno, and updating it after 20 years in service. I just finished this move, and major update (with modern data acquisition) two weeks ago. We christened the dyno with my daughter's first T4 engine build, which made 120HP. Not bad for an 8 year old, who had previously only built Go Kart engines.

Love the vintage dyno for vintage engines.

@jake raby

Very cool. I've always appreciated the fact that you have a dyno to back your HP claims and to do development on.

Way to many in the industry (not just 914's) that are out there making absurd HP claims but don't have the dyno to back it up.

Sure you can do lot's of interesting work on a racetrack or drag strip to develop an engine but nothing beats a dyno for repatability. Keep on Keepin' on!

Jake! Glad you posted so we know. Bailed from here, not AC engines. Hope to see more of you

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I would pump some water for that money

Would a 718 motor work? Seeing them on evil bay for about $5000 with 10K miles....



https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-17-18-19-Pors...7Cclp%3A2334524

Cripes! That is cheap if healthy.

Would a 718 motor work? Seeing them on evil bay for about $5000 with 10K miles....



https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-17-18-19-Pors...7Cclp%3A2334524

If you know what we know about the DFI engines, you'd see that about 1/2 of what you need to make this engine run in a 914, is actually being sold in the ad. It would be easier to rip all the ancillaries off it, and throw a pair of carbs on it, than try to make all the other aspects work.. That includes DME, and immobilizer, which are hard enough to hack in the actual vehicle it belongs in.

That said, what I see from the front row is what I expected we would see with elevated 914 values, and more notoriety. The people who I am seeing as purchasers today, either want to add the "vintage performance" feel, and make the car the way it would her been "hot rodded" in the 70s, or they want it absolutely bone stock restored with the stock EFI, and etc.

I think this trait will continue as the 914 is more appreciated, and people want to make its original engine have more performance, while retaining a stock/ vintage flair. There were some years back in the day, when I'd go all year and never build a 914 engine, for a 914. They'd end up as conversions into beetles, 356s, and 912s. That changed a couple of years ago, and this year the 914 application is making up 80% of my work.

first off, just wanted to say they it’s great to hear from you!! i always have enjoyed our conversations here and in person at your facility when you so graciously hosted us as a group with there for Okteenerfest!! i was one of those that was going to have my car on the dyno when we had the software glitch 2 years ago! i still hope to get back there someday!!
also wanted to say that i have had the feeling and posted such, that eventually with the values of our cars going up and more people willing to restore the 914 correctly and willing to spend the $$ that we would see the motors also then being preserved and restored, and i am SO glad that you are a major part of that movement- and i am not surprised one bit. I know mine will require this in the next few years and have started the planning of just that, so i will follow with acute interest your posting of how this is going. for the benefit of the many new members here joining our ranks, please share more of all of what you are doing and have available for this of us that will be doing this. my numbers matching motor will remain of course and will need a quality rebuild in the near future.

again, the sharing of your knowledge and expertise is greatly appreciated!

Phil