can you buy a crate 2056?, looking to just pop in an engine versus rebulding Options

[McMark]

Engine too tricky for the pros to build but just right for the beginner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

Now I remember why I stopped posting as much... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Bleyseng]

I have built a few type 4's over the years and just like all engines take time to do it right. Nowdays you need a stash of assorted parts too just because so much used stuff is garbage.
Not having oil leaks is a science too not the amount of red hi-temp gasket maker. I have turned down several requests to build folks a engine (esp. bus ones) no thanks.

[horizontally-opposed]

Now I remember why I stopped posting as much... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Craigers17]

The part I hate to see the most is the possibility that these skills sets and fonts of knowledge won't be passed down/earned by the next generation. While I realize that building top notch air cooled engines is very labor and time intensive, it seems that if guys like McMark, Raby, etc. could find the right young hands and minds that would be willing to apprentice under them, these engines could be produced more readily, and, after they decide to "hang it up", the tradition will continue.

At some point, I think you have to bring more hands in help takeover some of the workload. I also realize finding good people is another whole can of worms. Others might say that these cars are dinosaurs and there just isn't enough future in it. I disagree...it seems that 356's, 914's, VW's etc are actually garnering more interest.

I see so much talent, skill, and craftsmanship out there, that it is mind-boggling. I hate to name names, because someone will always feel slighted, but when you see the product turned out by guys like McMark, Raby, Bruce Stone, Marty from MSDS, the whole 914 Rubber crew, Ben MB911, Jeff Bowlsby, and I'll throw Stefan's name in there from GTS,..(EDIT....don't know how I forgot Chris Foley and Len Hoffman....but ya...)I can only hope that all of this experience and talent carries forward. All of these folks are true artisans. I don't even want to start naming names of 914 gurus of on this site that are masters in their own right, but maybe don't produce product for general consumption. I also know I've left out many names....maybe others can add.... just my 2 cents....

[eric9144]

Rebuild prices go up, 914 prices go up. Its just the way it goes, and the cycle of classic cars, 25yrs ago you could get a decent 914 for $5k and get plenty of OE parts, early 911's were still under $10k in soCal... that's all days gone now, everything is more expensive and harder to source, factory parts have dried up and aftermarket stuff is hit and miss.

When the prices escalate, like when you see early 911's going for near 100k, suddenly the economy of scale is much different, that $25k engine isn't such a ridiculous proposition.

This will continue to drive prices up IMO

Don't kid yourself that these /4 builds are in the hot 911 engine range either--get a load of a high end 3.6 rebuild and you'll $hit yourself, heck there was a WEVO 915 listed here recently and just that was $15k... you could be in a engine/trans >$60k not including the car or the cores.

[mepstein]

One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.

McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.

[thelogo]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif)

Seems excessive to charge 25k because you need to make money . but these are somewhat of a boutique engine (big 4 )

[Bleyseng]

You should hear the baywindow guys bitch about spending $1000 on a rebuilt engine. They are the same engine except for the heads and Djet stuff. Still time consuming to do right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[billh1963]

One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.

McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.

Mark...you are spot on.

[DRPHIL914]

One of the ways to have success in business is to find a group of people who want something and make a profit giving them what they want. The problem with trying to supply the 914 crowd is the profit part. They aren’t the cost is no object crowd like the 356 or 911 crowd. It’s easy to find 911 customers who will drop $100, 200 or more to restore or hot rod their cars. The equivalent 914 owner is few and far between.

McMark’s comment sort of proves my point. If there was a real demand for good rebuilt type 4 engines, and money to be made, Mark would be building and selling them.

Mark...you are spot on.

i agree, although this has slowly been changing, remember it wasnt always that way with 356's or even 911's, its why you still find some that were dumped and parked years ago due to what ever, but "wasnt worth the cost of fixing". so this slowly may change. Heck, i bought my 914 for $2k and was told it would never be worth what it would cost to repair the rust in the longs and floor, that was only 11 years ago!, now its insured for 2x what i have in it and been offered that before, and others like it but less done in their restore have been sold for more. - my point is dont get short sited and throw your motor a way due to cost of repair vs value, but others that do see the value will and are arriving on the scene to do just that and those people will spend that $$ to restore that numbers matching motor and trans, - you just have to channel that buyer and no in general its probably not this crowd in general.
But it makes me wonder what i will do in the next few years when it comes time. i will need to atleast refresh the heads so been saving up to do just that with HAM heads etc, but if Mark wont build it i have access to the manuals etc might be a do it myself project. - i would rther pay the pro. .............

[mepstein]

There are still many 356, 911, etc engine builders who can build a top notch type 4. You just won’t get the $5k mcmark price.

[Tdskip]

There are still many 356, 911, etc engine builders who can build a top notch type 4. You just won’t get the $5k mcmark price.

+1

I think we all need to remember that we can’t demand cheap to a point where people can’t be fairly compensated for their time. If we want a professional service we need to be prepared to pay for it.

[Superhawk996]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/hissyfit.gif)

Seems excessive to charge 25k because you need to make money . but these are somewhat of a boutique engine (big 4 )

Ever priced a dyno? That equipment cost has to be amortized by the engine builds.

Likewise the time to set up engine on the dyno, fuel, tuning time, etc. It gets pricey reallly fast even if just renting dyno time.

[sreyemj]

Engine too tricky for the pros to build but just right for the beginner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

Now I remember why I stopped posting as much... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I don't understand this either. Everyone goes on about how it's not easy to do correctly, but then recommends spending 10k on parts to do it yourself?

[JOEPROPER]

Engine too tricky for the pros to build but just right for the beginner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif)

Now I remember why I stopped posting as much... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I don't understand this either. Everyone goes on about how it's not easy to do correctly, but then recommends spending 10k on parts to do it yourself?

Sarcasm... If you think it"s so easy, then go ahead and do it yourself... People think that's it's no big deal to rebuild these engines, so it shouldn't cost so much until they try to do it themselves and fail miserably. Later realizing (afterwards) that they themselves couldn't do it correctly even if they had all the necessary parts, facility, equipment etc... handed to them. People should stop bitchin' about the cost and do it themselves or realize the value of a job well done.

[mbseto]

I think about half the people here miss the sarcasm because they're still learning and have some sincere questions. You talk about a "914 engine", which in truth is an 80hp engine that shouldn't be hard for a - let's not say beginner, but an amateur - to build. But so many people here are running a big 4 with an output closer to the limit of what the design can do, or a 911 engine that's a generation removed from what's really a "914 engine" and it's a different beast.

[mepstein]

I think about half the people here miss the sarcasm because they're still learning and have some sincere questions. You talk about a "914 engine", which in truth is an 80hp engine that shouldn't be hard for a - let's not say beginner, but an amateur - to build. But so many people here are running a big 4 with an output closer to the limit of what the design can do, or a 911 engine that's a generation removed from what's really a "914 engine" and it's a different beast.

Good point. As soon as you move from stock, you become an engine designer/builder, not just assembler. Big difference.

[rjames]

Given prices for engine rebuilds, it's very probable that when it comes time for mine to be rebuilt I'll look for a used engine, or worst case scenario, just sell the car. Ideally I'd have an experienced engine builder do the work, but I can't justify the cost. I love the idea of building the engine myself, but $8-10k for the parts alone with a risk of screwing something up isn't enticing.

I remember when a $5k engine was being offered by McMark as a result of a joint effort between him and Raby. Before this thread came up, I didn't realize how much the prices for parts had gone up, or how long the line has become to get one built by someone who knows how to do it right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[Superhawk996]

I love the idea of building the engine myself, but $8-10k for the parts alone with a risk of screwing something up isn't enticing.

Lots of cross talk going on in this thread between high end Raby engines at $20K+ and what it costs for a modest rebuild which isn't $8K in parts.

Certainly pricey for new HAM heads, Raby cam, and Nickies, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif) However, that isn't a stock rebuild. It is feasible to have $8K in cost just between these three items. But again, not necessary for modest rebuild.

On the bottom end, reusing parts (re-use stock case, crank, push rods, flywheel, new AA Performance Products P&C set, etc.) where feasible is can be done for much less than $8K in parts.

The huge variable here is labor cost and a professional shop's overhead costs.

If you are doing the work yourself, you can spend 100+ hours if need be to do a basic stock type 4 rebuid decently. Thousands of 914 owners have done it with nothing more than the Tom Wilson book, dedication, discipline to not take shortcuts, and to use proper tools (torque wrench! ! !). That labor cost is nothing.

On the other hand, if you want to pay the likes of Jake or McMark's building and tuning expertise, $100 - 150 / hour is not an unreasonable shop rate. But, if it is going to take them 40 hours of labor, and dyno time to run in, and tune your new high dollar big bore, $6K or more in labor is not out of the question. In fact, I'm probably estimating it way low. They have over head (shop cots, tools, dyno, payroll taxes, lawsuit risk!, etc.) to cover and the cost is not excessive and should be expected.

[BeatNavy]

Just as a data point, I spent a little over $5400 on all parts and machining services when I did my 2056 last year. I didn't skimp anywhere on quality or cut corners. I did have a case on hand, but those are relatively cheap, and the machining included case decking the spigots, balancing parts, resurfacing flywheel, and checking bore alignment.

I broke a two rings on cylinder 1 when I first installed it. Something wasn't right, and a compression check verified. I pulled the engine, and fortunately accessing the rings doesn't require splitting the case. Re-gapped them all, replaced the broken ones, and reinstalled.

I put a couple thousand miles on it, and it ran like a champ before I installed my 2270. It's now sitting on the floor of my garage, and I'm wondering what to do with it, although I'm probably going to keep it because I believe it's numbers matching to the car.

I am not an experienced builder. I took my time, made one serious mistake from which I was able to recover, and was pretty happy with the result and the experience.