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> Weapons grade versus more subtle 914/6 builds
Tdskip
post Oct 5 2020, 07:55 AM
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So it certainly appears if one uses BAT as a reference point that weapons grade 914/6 builds have been fully excepted as “worthy” the Porsche market.

Nearly all of those builds, however, have been high dollar endeavors, and while highly impressive machines many of them seem a bit compromised for actual road use or touring.

Any thoughts on where 3.0 and 3.2 L builds that are not taken to the max now trade?
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Racer
post Oct 5 2020, 08:15 AM
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BAT is an outlier of many things.. Their writing and presentation being key. once you leave the world of stock, imho, you enter into the buyers desires.. Some like 2.4-2.7l cars.. others want a whole hog 3.6.

Either way, Execution becomes key. Folks on BaT seem to have a lot of money to spend on their toys. Color, condition, records of any restoration/rebuild of the body/engine/brakes and trans all impact value of the modded car. And then the picture also gets muddled when high $$ /4 cars pop up and go for $40-75K.

I would guess a livable range for 3.0-3.2 cars with a "history" to be $40-50k cars.. but its not the car, its the BUYER that makes it all happen. There was this nice one that never hit $30K https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-porsche-914-39/ which I think surprised many
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Tdskip
post Oct 5 2020, 09:04 AM
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Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful reply. That is actually a great reference point that you posted, I think nice as opposed to outrageously (aka weapons grade) nice cars are probably still in that general range?
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mepstein
post Oct 5 2020, 09:28 AM
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QUOTE(Racer @ Oct 5 2020, 10:15 AM) *

BAT is an outlier of many things.. Their writing and presentation being key. once you leave the world of stock, imho, you enter into the buyers desires.. Some like 2.4-2.7l cars.. others want a whole hog 3.6.

Either way, Execution becomes key. Folks on BaT seem to have a lot of money to spend on their toys. Color, condition, records of any restoration/rebuild of the body/engine/brakes and trans all impact value of the modded car. And then the picture also gets muddled when high $$ /4 cars pop up and go for $40-75K.

I would guess a livable range for 3.0-3.2 cars with a "history" to be $40-50k cars.. but its not the car, its the BUYER that makes it all happen. There was this nice one that never hit $30K https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-porsche-914-39/ which I think surprised many

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Unless I'm missing something, that car was a hell of a deal.
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Tdskip
post Oct 5 2020, 09:29 AM
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Is the take away from that one sale that you need to put flares on the car?
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 5 2020, 09:45 AM
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UNless you are building to sell, build the car you want and will enjoy. Chances are someone else will too when they time to sell comes around.

If you are building just to sell, that's when you want to be concerned about current market trends.
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Tdskip
post Oct 5 2020, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE(VaccaRabite @ Oct 5 2020, 10:45 AM) *

UNless you are building to sell, build the car you want and will enjoy. Chances are someone else will too when they time to sell comes around.

If you are building just to sell, that's when you want to be concerned about current market trends.


Good morning. Really just exploring/discussing the evolving market. Don’t know much, but enough that I know I can’t build one like the $100k cars and not to get into flipping builds.

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mepstein
post Oct 5 2020, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE(Tdskip @ Oct 5 2020, 11:29 AM) *

Is the take away from that one sale that you need to put flares on the car?

Widebody does bring more money but it cost money to get there.

I don't know anyone who builds project cars to sell at a profit without having a customer lined up and footing the build. If shops could build on spec and make a profit, they would absolutely do it. It's tough being married to a customer for a year or three while you build their car. I don't generally see private individuals selling project cars at a profit either.
Someone once told me in real estate, you make money on the buy side". It took me a while to understand but I believe buying and selling cars works the same way. "
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eric9144
post Oct 5 2020, 11:41 AM
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I think it's interesting how few of the "right" cars really come up on BAT... Lots of BUB's and lots of questionable cars, occasionally some good stuff... but the really good ones are few and far between.

The WMD builds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) have gotten somewhat out of hand to financially pull off at this point, man you got to be really into it to go build out a 914-6 clone for >$150k and you've also got to know you can never sell and come anywhere close to a break even. That being said, you have to be "all there" mentally and physically to get in and drive them without fuch'ing yourself. Think that's why they come up on BAT...

The sweet spot conversion cars are like the 73/74 2.0's... People are holding the good ones and not selling, or selling rarely and/or not on BAT at all.
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Cairo94507
post Oct 5 2020, 01:22 PM
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We have all seen some really well done conversion cars with larger displacement motors, 2.7 & up. If I would have been interested in more of a street hot rod I would have gone with a conversion car with flares and a 3.0 with Webers, moderate suspension, moderate chassis stiffening, front oil cooler, RS finished Fuchs, and a good paint job- not a Concours level paint job. I think those cars can be had for $40K-$50K. The trick is to know what you want, recognize it when you see it, be able to go see it in person (ideally) and then whip out the cash offer on the spot and have a trailer parked around the corner. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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horizontally-opposed
post Oct 5 2020, 02:58 PM
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QUOTE(Tdskip @ Oct 5 2020, 08:29 AM) *

Is the take away from that one sale that you need to put flares on the car?


^ I think that's sort of the conventional thinking right now.

Six conversions that sell for "big" money seem to take a certain "crowd pleasing" look, and M471 flares do seem to be connected to that look. Two still stand out as high-water marks for me:

Sold for $52k + fees for beautifully presented 2.0T (!) six conversion with flares (9/7/17)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-porsche-914-6-gt/

Bid to $103,914 for a beautifully presented 3.6 six conversion with flares (5/12/20)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-porsche-914-6-9/

There are plenty of other examples, but these two auctions strike me as bellwethers—and the takeaway for me is that a new (and/or returning) crowd is clearly interested in the 914, and likes the flared 914s more than narrow 914s.

While it's nothing more than a hunch, I think there's trickle-down ahead much as we've seen with other models. It starts with headliners that get hot (356 Speedsters, Carrera RS 2.7s, 930s, etc), and the rising tide eventually raises the other ships. There might be waves with economic cycles and other influences, but what typically seems to happen is 1) the headliners are Hoovered up and prices get superheated, 2) buyers become more sophisticated as they gain new eyes for and perspectives on that era and "discover" some of the better kept secrets that are maybe subtle but similarly wonderful in their own right (356A or C coupe, 1967 911S, 911 2.2, etc).

I don't have a crystal ball, but I can see where 914s with flares might eventually lead to greater appreciation of the narrow cars. In high school, I wanted to flare my car but couldn't afford to. I still love the GT flares, but have grown to really like and appreciate the clean lines of the original design—particularly when it's presented well. My guess is that the market might follow a similar trajectory...
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horizontally-opposed
post Oct 5 2020, 03:00 PM
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Fwiw, I have driven a lot of weapons-grade 914s, but only two that were actually fun to drive. The others were fast, but I am not sure they'd put much distance on a well-driven 914-4 down a back road because they were kind of a mess. Fast, yes, but hardly dialed. I remember driving one 914-6 3.8 with all the right stuff (915, S4/965 brakes, etc) that routinely trounced just about anything in a straight line back around 2000 alongside a milder 914-6 3.6. The 3.8 had you on your toes all the time, and you were nearly fighting with the car just to feel reasonably safe while you hauled, while the 3.6 felt like a 914 that had been built by the factory with a 993 engine. It was this car, and I think it was a steal in light of some of the other prices I've seen. There are some visual changes I'd make, but those are easy. Sorting a car is where the real art lies...

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1970-porsche-914-6-28/

The best (most fun) 914 I've ever driven had a 2.2-liter 911S engine with MFI and short gears. Someone here on the World bought it recently. Now that was a smart buy...and that car remains a target for my own 2.2.
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Tdskip
post Oct 5 2020, 03:21 PM
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@horizontally-opposed - thanks for the thoughtful posts, good stuff.

Dialed-in and factory feeling is the goal. The '74 911 has a 3.2l in it but is still a narrow body but has been upgraded in a bunch of ways that don't really show (suspension etc). It is just 14/10ths competent vs a stock '74 if that makes sense, hugely satisfying and I've gotten out of it after 1,000 mile trips wondering where the time/miles went because I was ready for more.

That is my goal for the 3.2l build I'm picking at while wrapping up a couple (non-aircooled) builds. Wondering, all that said, if I'll need more rubber to handle the 3.2L engine even if I try to out drive the tires...

I regret not grabbing a occasional 2.2 or 2.4 that have come up for sale...but expect to pick up a 3.0l from before Oct ends. So....
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eric9144
post Oct 5 2020, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE(horizontally-opposed @ Oct 5 2020, 01:58 PM) *

Sold for $52k + fees for beautifully presented 2.0T (!) six conversion with flares (9/7/17)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-porsche-914-6-gt/

Bid to $103,914 for a beautifully presented 3.6 six conversion with flares (5/12/20)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-porsche-914-6-9/


The white one is absolutely fantastic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) I wish I'd been in a position to bid on that one...it checks all the boxes for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif)

The driving video on the blue one is almost anxiety inducing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

I do appreciate that there are fringe builds out there that are clearly getting an audience and that people have taken a greater interest in how amazing the 914's really are, were and can be.
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Tdskip
post Oct 5 2020, 04:59 PM
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@mesptein - do your customers ever ask for a "mild" 914/6 conversion or is it call big $?
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porschetub
post Oct 5 2020, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Oct 6 2020, 04:28 AM) *

QUOTE(Racer @ Oct 5 2020, 10:15 AM) *

BAT is an outlier of many things.. Their writing and presentation being key. once you leave the world of stock, imho, you enter into the buyers desires.. Some like 2.4-2.7l cars.. others want a whole hog 3.6.

Either way, Execution becomes key. Folks on BaT seem to have a lot of money to spend on their toys. Color, condition, records of any restoration/rebuild of the body/engine/brakes and trans all impact value of the modded car. And then the picture also gets muddled when high $$ /4 cars pop up and go for $40-75K.

I would guess a livable range for 3.0-3.2 cars with a "history" to be $40-50k cars.. but its not the car, its the BUYER that makes it all happen. There was this nice one that never hit $30K https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-porsche-914-39/ which I think surprised many

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Unless I'm missing something, that car was a hell of a deal.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) someone dumped a sh#tload of $$$ and most likely didn't profit from the sale the PO or current owner/seller I'am thinking....lot of money in the motor alone.
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mepstein
post Oct 6 2020, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE(Tdskip @ Oct 5 2020, 06:59 PM) *

@mesptein - do your customers ever ask for a "mild" 914/6 conversion or is it call big $?

The shop where I used to work does 98% aircooled 911. The majority of the conversions are 3.2/3.4 or 3.6/3.8. These days, 911 guys want the big engines so it's mostly 3.8's. They've done one 914-6 conversion even though the owner is a 914 fan and has two 914 race cars. Most of the shop builds are $2-300K so it's well beyond what most 914 are looking for. I don't think the website has been updated for a while but they are at -
www.rswerks.com
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Tdskip
post Oct 6 2020, 05:58 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Oct 6 2020, 06:50 AM) *

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Oct 5 2020, 06:59 PM) *

@mesptein - do your customers ever ask for a "mild" 914/6 conversion or is it call big $?

The shop where I used to work does 98% aircooled 911. The majority of the conversions are 3.2/3.4 or 3.6/3.8. These days, 911 guys want the big engines so it's mostly 3.8's. They've done one 914-6 conversion even though the owner is a 914 fan and has two 914 race cars. Most of the shop builds are $2-300K so it's well beyond what most 914 are looking for. I don't think the website has been updated for a while but they are at -
www.rswerks.com


Thanks for the response Mark, sounds like the dynamic is similar however in that people bringing cars to a builder are generally really having them built.

There was a local shop here in town that did a mild / narrow body 914/6 build before they retired and it ended up being $40k+. I remember the owner muttering something like “they should have just spent $20k and really done it up.

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Coondog
post Oct 6 2020, 07:24 AM
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While both those cars are top notch, Eric scored the deal of the Century when he bought the Patrick Motor Sport built “Big Laguna”. That same car in today’s prices would set you back 200k coming out of PMS.
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mepstein
post Oct 6 2020, 07:38 AM
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QUOTE(Coondog @ Oct 6 2020, 09:24 AM) *

While both those cars are top notch, Eric scored the deal of the Century when he bought the Patrick Motor Sport built “Big Laguna”. That same car in today’s prices would set you back 200k coming out of PMS.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) 1000%
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