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> Weapons grade versus more subtle 914/6 builds
horizontally-opposed
post Oct 6 2020, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE(Coondog @ Oct 6 2020, 06:24 AM) *

While both those cars are top notch, Eric scored the deal of the Century when he bought the Patrick Motor Sport built “Big Laguna”. That same car in today’s prices would set you back 200k coming out of PMS.


Totally agree. That was the deal of a century.

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ClayPerrine
post Oct 6 2020, 09:44 AM
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As the builder of a "Weapons Grade" conversion I have to comment.

I have probably spent 40K on engine and trans alone. I don't know for sure, as I don't total any receipts. It is blindingly fast. But I am still working out the bugs, and I still have not sorted the chassis issues a year after getting it running.

I did it because I wanted to, and somebody said that you can't put a boxster/cayman trans in a 914 without cutting the rear trunk out.

But mostly I did it because it was there. I am a horsepower junkie.

I built the car for me. If I ever sell it (I probably will keep it till the end), I will definitely lose money. But I get to enjoy it and brag about it. That was worth the money!

Clay
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eric9144
post Oct 6 2020, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE(mepstein @ Oct 6 2020, 06:38 AM) *

QUOTE(Coondog @ Oct 6 2020, 09:24 AM) *

While both those cars are top notch, Eric scored the deal of the Century when he bought the Patrick Motor Sport built “Big Laguna”. That same car in today’s prices would set you back 200k coming out of PMS.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) 1000%

Going through the paperwork I know I bought for between 1/3 and 1/2 it's "finished" cost... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/first.gif)

*keep in mind also, a lot of these builds take 3-5+ years and involve lots of parts hunting, drama and sorting out, mine was no exception to that, TBH I don't think I'd have the patience to go through it all
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horizontally-opposed
post Oct 6 2020, 09:58 AM
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QUOTE(eric9144 @ Oct 5 2020, 02:57 PM) *

QUOTE(horizontally-opposed @ Oct 5 2020, 01:58 PM) *

Sold for $52k + fees for beautifully presented 2.0T (!) six conversion with flares (9/7/17)
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-porsche-914-6-gt/



The white one is absolutely fantastic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) I wish I'd been in a position to bid on that one...it checks all the boxes for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif)



That white car was really presented well, both in terms of the photos and video—but also in terms of the build's overall restraint and period looks. Visual decisions, details, ride height, etc. Squint and it's the Sonauto car that won Le Mans. My gut is the 914s the market will favor in the long run are the ones that look like something either the factory could have built or something from the period. Not always, but generally—as a result of broader appeal and as a result of today's seven-figure GTs. Not sure that will translate to 916-look cars as much, or NB cars for that matter, but it will be interesting to watch.

What was interesting to me about the white six conversion is that it got to that (record setting) price on Fuchs the aren't finished properly, BF Goodrich tires, and the weakest flat six of them all. All three might suggest, to many buyers at least, corners cut. Rightly or wrongly, they're looking for Weidman-restored Fuchs, Avons or Pirellis, and at least a 2.5 under the engine lid. But the car was so well done it didn't matter, and the fact it went for that much back in 2017 really impressed me. And yes, I really like the car too!
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horizontally-opposed
post Oct 6 2020, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE(Tdskip @ Oct 5 2020, 03:59 PM) *

@mesptein - do your customers ever ask for a "mild" 914/6 conversion or is it call big $?


An excellent question....

The customers for "mild" conversions are out there, whether due to taste or budget. One of the coolest examples I've found is this car—I find it really, really appealing…on par with some of the best flared conversions out there but for different reasons.

https://patrickmotorsports.com/blogs/news/9...road-rally-trim

QUOTE(mepstein @ Oct 6 2020, 04:50 AM) *

The shop where I used to work does 98% aircooled 911. The majority of the conversions are 3.2/3.4 or 3.6/3.8. These days, 911 guys want the big engines so it's mostly 3.8's. They've done one 914-6 conversion even though the owner is a 914 fan and has two 914 race cars. Most of the shop builds are $2-300K so it's well beyond what most 914 are looking for. I don't think the website has been updated for a while but they are at -
www.rswerks.com


Cost to build a mild or a wild six conversion isn't all that different if both are all inclusive (metal work + full paint + interior + engine/trans + suspension/brakes/wheels/tires). So I can see why most builds go wild (big six, flares, etc), and not sure I could resist myself. Suspect the nice narrow cars are a bit like a John Willhoit 356B or C coupe. Same $350-500k ballpark for a complete restoration, but on a car that will likely never be able to justify that cost. But the person wants what they want, for whatever reason (nostalgia, utility, subtlety, etc), and is willing to pay for it because there's no exact alternative. As I understand it, the Willhoit cars trade between Willhoit customers at a super premium over analogous cars—because those patrons know how long and how many $ it takes to do one of those cars.

I don't see that happening—on that level—for the 914 world, as the 356 and 911 are just different beasts. Is anyone doing $150-250k in metal work on a 914 (before paint!) as yet?

What's funny to me about the 914 is that, the more time I've spent in various Porsches, the better it holds up. This goes for 356s, 911s of all eras, the "ultimate" Porsches, the race cars, RSRs, etc. Not saying it's better, but it holds up surprisingly well given the "press" it always got. I didn't expect that, as I always accepted the idea that my 914 was a "starter kit" Porsche to budding Porsche enthusiasts, the one you discard as you as you get that used 911 SC, or whatever. But as other Porsches have come and gone, whether as press cars or my own cars, the 914 is the one I've kept, and the one I keep coming back to. Its branding heritage—for those who care—is a mess, but its identity is clear. Both as a Porsche design and engineering project, and as a simply fantastic sports car.
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eric9144
post Oct 6 2020, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE(Tdskip @ Oct 5 2020, 06:55 AM) *

Nearly all of those builds, however, have been high dollar endeavors, and while highly impressive machines many of them seem a bit compromised for actual road use or touring.

Back to @TDSkip 's original topic question...

Mine is a 3.8, "all out" open checkbook build--I was in the right place at the right time and as a life long 914 guy it was the 10/10ths car I never thought I'd personally own. I didn't really even consider the drivability so after 8 months of ownership and about 1500mi I can answer that to some degree.

Like Clay, I'm a HP junkie but also a 914 junkie, two worlds collide and it's magic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

For actual road use, I'm not going to lie, it's actually pretty f*ching amazing-- 911 TT fast and 914 characteristics. The front end is seems a litte stiff to me, but outside of that I really can't complain about ride quality--keep in mind my chassis has all the stiffening available, as well as the trailing arms and extensive tubing and suspension bracing. The drive train is incredibly well sorted (now that its been "rescued" and is being driven). Starts on 1st crank, trans feels fluidly smooth (915 wevo). Inside the engine bay looks like it was all factory thanks to well sorted wiring/tins etc.

So on the package level, its really put together well, to the point where it could be a daily driver.

On the "touring use" side of things...well...I'm getting there, having grown up with 914's it never really occurred to me that it wasn't a good idea to jump in and make super long trips, it was my car and that's what it was for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

My only beef with driving my "WMD" to something like WCR (500 mi one way for me) is the noise--on my car there's no sound deadening on the FW in the bay or in the cabin so the noise, while not outright annoying, isn't really conducive to long distance touring per say...when I'm not in the throttle, the exhaust tone isn't bad really, but still louder than is comfortable for long trips. I plan on addressing that and I my goal is to make it the most civilized version of it that it could be. Ironically it has an audiophile stereo installation that I don't really turn on.

Gratuitous photo op (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)




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Cairo94507
post Oct 6 2020, 10:54 AM
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Hi @eric9144 - I understand about engine noise in these. Funny, I don't recall ever thinking my other 2 914-6's were loud when driving. But that was almost 30 years ago.... these days, with my 3.2 and Ben's SS heat exchangers and quiet muffler I do not believe it is the exhaust that bothers me. It is the engine noise itself. I wear soft foam earplugs when I drive the car and that makes it completely comfortable and still allows me to talk and hear my passenger.

One of the things on my list is to install the stock 3.2 air box and snorkel. At present I have a K&N that dumps right behind my head. I think that may be part of the noise problem. I want to route the stock box so it sits on the passenger side of the car. I will get to that eventually.



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horizontally-opposed
post Oct 6 2020, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE(eric9144 @ Oct 6 2020, 09:25 AM) *



On the "touring use" side of things...well...I'm getting there, having grown up with 914's it never really occurred to me that it wasn't a good idea to jump in and make super long trips, it was my car and that's what it was for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

My only beef with driving my "WMD" to something like WCR (500 mi one way for me) is the noise--on my car there's no sound deadening on the FW in the bay or in the cabin so the noise, while not outright annoying, isn't really conducive to long distance touring per say...when I'm not in the throttle, the exhaust tone isn't bad really, but still louder than is comfortable for long trips. I plan on addressing that and I my goal is to make it the most civilized version of it that it could be. Ironically it has an audiophile stereo installation that I don't really turn on.

Gratuitous photo op (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)




^ Love the wheel change—nice to see you're making that car your own…

Since 1990~, I've driven my 914 as far north as Washington state, and as far east as Utah. Back then, I was like you: It was my car, so of course I drove it. But, other than a trip to LA for Luft one year, long trips have been rarer lately. Some of that is midlife crunch, and some of it is having more comfortable options…something I didn't have back in the 1990s.

As for sound deadening: The factory knew what it was up to with the firewall deadening both sides in the 914-4, and we took a risk in leaving the factory stuff on the engine side of my six conversion, just adding a few extra anchors to make sure the 911 cooling fan didn't suck it in. Years later, so far so good. Car is still a lot louder on the freeway than it was with the four, but that's okay as I don't use the car for touring all that often. With that said, I have sometimes wondered about whether a bit of deadening on the underside of the engine lid and maybe even a dual-pane rear window (seems like it would be easy to do, and I think it's been discussed here) might help when the top is on?

At odds with all this is my desire to keep these cars light…
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Mueller
post Oct 6 2020, 11:24 AM
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At certain price points potential buyers expect a stripped to bare metal chassis rebuild, is this something you are willing to do or can accomplish?

Just slapping a 3.0 or even a 3.8 into a 914 isn't going to make it a high end build which would be fine for some buyers since they don't want or can afford a full rotisserie rebuild.


Just look at the current BAT '71 911 with a 3.0 motor. Decent looking car and so far only $21K bid (a few hours to go)

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Mark Henry
post Oct 6 2020, 11:35 AM
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Do you plan to drive it, show it or flip it?

My 3.0/6 has a sort of well done colour change that was done in the 80's, it has paint chips all over, but it's still respectable paint. Every year I think I should repaint my teen and every year I get more paint chips.
The thing is I drive my 914, sometimes I drive it hard, if I was worried about the paint it would suck all the joy out of driving it. So I've come to the conclusion I'll never have a show quality teen and I'm okay with that. I just want to enjoy my 914.

I'm a horsepower junkie as well, mine might not have the ponies of a 3.6-3.8, but it's a twinplug 3.0 with healthy Web cams which is more than enough power for the street for me. I've been almost daily driving my 914 all summer.

My face has a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chowtime.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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ClayPerrine
post Oct 6 2020, 11:47 AM
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QUOTE(eric9144 @ Oct 6 2020, 11:25 AM) *

Ironically it has an audiophile stereo installation that I don't really turn on.


I put an good radio in my car years ago. But it would take me about 10 minutes to figure out how to turn it on because I never really listen to music... other than the "music" coming from right behind me.

Clay
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Cairo94507
post Oct 6 2020, 12:48 PM
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I installed a period correct Blaupunkt with the stock 2 speaker pods and that is it. I don't turn it on-more for the looks. But of course it does work as I it was restored before installation. I did add an electric Hirschmann antenna.
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Coondog
post Oct 6 2020, 01:04 PM
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I settled my long drive noise issues with two options

# Turn the stereo up louder
# Ear plugs
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Cairo94507
post Oct 6 2020, 01:35 PM
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Hi Greg - Yeah, I wear soft ear plugs already. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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VegasRacer
post Oct 6 2020, 01:45 PM
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The only way to come out on top financially is to buy an exceptionally nice car that somebody else has built. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

The real pay off comes when you actually use it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) A lot.
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post Oct 6 2020, 02:01 PM
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Watching with interest.

I may be the last builder of non-WMD out there from what I can tell. I'm not chasing HP.

2.4L planned. Staying with 901 trans.

Just want a period correct six and to keep the car as light as possible. I will certainly lose money doing this but intend to keep it until I'm no longer vertical in this world.
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eric9144
post Oct 6 2020, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Oct 6 2020, 01:01 PM) *

Watching with interest.

I may be the last builder of non-WMD out there from what I can tell. I'm not chasing HP.

2.4L planned. Staying with 901 trans.

Just want a period correct six and to keep the car as light as possible.

Like Pete said, honestly that's one of the best combo's possible, you won't regret it--light and nimble and genuine fun without being overdone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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Tdskip
post Oct 6 2020, 03:37 PM
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Great discussion gentlemen, really appreciate all of the shared experiences and thoughts.

Mark H - I build my cars to drive, and honestly a bit scruffy makes that easier. I want to be able to park it, look back at it while walking away and then spend zero time worrying about it. The best drive ever was in my 5 shades of red 911, and now that it is freshly painted and "nice" I wonder if I'll enjoy it less.

Personally my rule of thumb is anything I buy / build has to be capable of making a run up the coast to San Francisco an enjoyable experience. That "rule" kicked the MGA out of the garage recently (sigh), just too much of a toy.

No doubt that a 3.2L will make the SF run with power to spare but I do worry about the NHV considerations. The 2.0L/Type4 that I flew into Oregon to pick up and then Rachael and I drove down the coast was never an issue with NHV or noise. Those big dollar builds on BAT driving videos are fun to watch but honestly make me wonder how long before you'd get too ride and noise fatigued.

@superhawk - was leaning towards that same engine but then the 3.2l became available and it was close to the same price and, well, there you go....

The 911 has a 3.2l but there are back seats and comparatively loads of space separating the engine from where you sit.

Last quick thought - it is very nice to be able to just bounce these build considerations around and reference other cars that we have experienced. I know I am stupid lucky to even participate on threads like...
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mepstein
post Oct 6 2020, 03:51 PM
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It should be easy to make a 3.2 build quiet and comfortable. Stock injection with stock air box. Modern noise reduction inside cockpit. Might double it up on firewall. One of Ben's quiet mufflers. Don't go ultra low profile on the tires and play with tire pressure. Even the sixes are a lot lighter than modern cars.

You may want to change the 5th gear for cruising. A 3.2 in a 914 can handle lower revs than a small engine.
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post Oct 6 2020, 04:25 PM
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@eric9144 what a stunning car. I started flaring my car last weekend. It's silver too but I'm toying with a color change - yours has got me second guessing myself though.

Does the front valance have the cut out for the oil cooler? I was looking at the style on the PMS website but haven't seen one on a car.
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