Weapons grade versus more subtle 914/6 builds Options

[Coondog]

One off for my car. Leather imported from Italy.

[Gint]

Very nice. I like those a lot.

Found your thread on the subject. Seats are done

[davehg]

I have one build under my belt, a 3.2, and another now underway, a 2.7 twin plug. There is no way I will come out ahead on either one as I am paying to have the work done, and I am a bit of a perfectionist in making sure things are done right, which always cost.

Wise advise in this thread to buy someone else’s Completed conversion if your goal is coming out well financially. Both of mine will collectively top $100k by the time I’m done but hey - I’ll have two awesome cars to play with. But I would not spend the $$$ to do a 3.6 or 3.8 as it makes more fiscal sense to buy one that someone else has done properly and save the cost and time.

The 914 conversions are now completely acceptable in the Porsche world. Sure, a pure 914-6 is highly prized, and many still turn their nose up at Renegade and Subaru Conversions, but who cares? It helps when RGruppe co-founder Freeman Thomas has a -6 3.2 conversion, and Porsche pop stars like Magnus Walker have been adding several Teeners to their collections.

While I am still underwater, at least I got in before it got completely insane I guess. I had these built for me to my tastes but with some eye towards keeping them in the Porsche GT mold, but it’s my money and I sorta kinda don’t give a rats ass what purists or others think, though I do get high fives from those I respect.

Do it for you, and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks (except your missus when she finds out what you really spent).

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i.imgur.com-21443-1602140419.1.jpg)

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[Tdskip]

Thanks for the post and pictures Dave. Very cool.

2.7 twin plug the narrow body I assume?

[eric9144]

There is no way I will come out ahead on either one as I am paying to have the work done

It kind of begs the question--with the massive up surge in the parts required to do conversions where that will drive the market.
10-15 years ago you could convert a 4 to a 6 for "reasonable" money... not so much now, donor engines that used to be well under 10k in running condition are now being listed at $20-30k... a number that probably exceeds total cost to do a good quality conversion from a decade back.

Wise advise in this thread to buy someone else’s Completed conversion if your goal is coming out well financially.

Amen to that brother! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[ClayPerrine]

I sorta kinda don’t give a rats ass what purists or others think, though I do get high fives from those I respect.

Do it for you, and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks (except your missus when she finds out what you really spent).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I am lucky... or maybe unlucky.. I am not too sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) My wife doesn't get too upset about what I spend on my 914, as long as I spend money on HER 914 too.

[horizontally-opposed]

…it makes more fiscal sense to buy one that someone else has done properly and save the cost and time.

The 914 conversions are now completely acceptable in the Porsche world.

Do it for you, and don’t worry about what anyone else thinks (except your missus when she finds out what you really spent).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with all of the above.

Suspect we may see a day—or are already there—where the six conversions are more acceptable to many Porsche enthusiasts than (newly) modified real 914-6s. I like modified cars, so I never have and still don't care if someone modifies the cars, but I am not sure I'd be able to bring myself to do it to a really nice original car anymore—no matter what year or engine.

The cool thing is that the Porsche market makes space for hot rods—and I think there are a lot of us who would rather have a hot-rod 914-6—whether mild or wild—than a dead-stock concours car even if respect the survivors and understand why they will always pull top dollar. I view them as permission slips. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It kind of begs the question--with the massive up surge in the parts required to do conversions where that will drive the market.
10-15 years ago you could convert a 4 to a 6 for "reasonable" money... not so much now, donor engines that used to be well under 10k in running condition are now being listed at $20-30k... a number that probably exceeds total cost to do a good quality conversion from a decade back.

This also resonates. A number of the parts used for my conversion were a lot more attainable when I started the process in 2010~, but there are other tipping points as well—age of these engines as well as increased mileage as well as increased interest/buyer pool. Was speaking with an engine builder recently, who mentioned one of the "weapons grade" 911 engine builders now starts at $75k for a "big block" 911 engine (3.5-40, I am guessing?), and won't touch mag cases anymore—because the latter aren't engine rebuilds...they're engine restorations now.

We are beyond lucky to have the cottage industry of parts suppliers that we do for so many of the parts needed for these cars, whether for stock, modified, or conversions. And I'll include non-Porsche engine conversion parts in that equation.

[racer914]

Watching with interest.

I may be the last builder of non-WMD out there from what I can tell. I'm not chasing HP.

2.4L planned. Staying with 901 trans.

Just want a period correct six and to keep the car as light as possible. I will certainly lose money doing this but intend to keep it until I'm no longer vertical in this world.

I'm doing the same. I have the 2.4 motor and will use the 901. Just a street hot rod for me and I'm looking forward to getting it on the road. I've had 2 other 914/6's and I just can't stay away from them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tdskip]

Was speaking with an engine builder recently, who mentioned one of the "weapons grade" 911 engine builders now starts at $75k for a "big block" 911 engine (3.5-40, I am guessing?), and won't touch mag cases anymore—because the latter aren't engine rebuilds...they're engine restorations now.

Ugh...I understand it, but ugh.

[Superhawk996]

. . . and won't touch mag cases anymore—because the latter aren't engine rebuilds...they're engine restorations now.

Yup. I have the inovices to prove that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) But . . . . somebody has to do it. They ain't making them anymore. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

"big block" 911 engine

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

When you start talking about 6.0L+ maybe then we can call it a big block

[horizontally-opposed]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

When you start talking about 6.0L+ maybe then we can call it a big block

Yeah, I know. This started up as something of an inside joke among early 911 hot rodders as they tried to differentiate hot rods between the early engine purists (2.0-2.4 or maybe 2.5-2.8) and those swapping in 3.2s, 3.6s, and 3.8s. So they called them small blocks and big blocks—which is humorous not only because of the fact a typical small block Chevy is 350ci or 5.7 liters, never mind the big blocks, but also because the "block" is a crankcase that really didn't change in terms of dimensions—though it sure got heavier with the (arguable) first "big blocks" in aluminum for the 930 and (mainline) 911 SC.

[horizontally-opposed]

Anyway, to the OP's question, it is a question and one I wonder about from time to time (mainly as I really need to do an agreed upon value insurance policy).

I haven't seen a "benchmark" or high watermark sale of a subtle six conversion, but it seems like the high market for a fantastic weapons grade/flared six conversion with all the "right" stuff might be $90-100k to a buyer who understands the cost to build one, while the low end might be $70-80k (for the screaming deal, or a car with some but not too many needs)? I don't know where that leaves a really nice subtle hot-rodded six conversion…but I don't think it's in the same ballpark—yet. So maybe the range is $30-35k on the low end to $45-50K on the high end? So, about half? But, again, I can't point to a single benchmark sale.

[Tdskip]

An agreed to value policy is critical for anything like this, and I would argue for any classic in today’s market.

It does seem to me that homebrew, even if exceptionally well done as a good number iof you have turned out, conversions are in the $25-45 range.

I can totally get why these builds tend to escalate. I was staring at the Fresno 914 yesterday (“just” putting a 2 L / 4 in) and found myself thinking that if it goes down to bare metal at some point it’s going to trigger a set of follow on work that makes the “might as well” and “now is the time” list of build options a very slippery slope.

[horizontally-opposed]

It does seem to me that homebrew, even if exceptionally well done as a good number iof you have turned out, conversions are in the $25-45 range.

I can totally get why these builds tend to escalate. I was staring at the Fresno 914 yesterday (“just” putting a 2 L / 4 in) and found myself thinking that if it goes down to bare metal at some point it’s going to trigger a set of follow on work that makes the “might as well” and “now is the time” list of build options a very slippery slope.

^ Agreed. "#3" and "#4" narrow body six conversions do seem to be in the range you mention, or about the same as nice and really nice 914 2.0 fours—yet less than the best 4s.

I suspect a price might go higher for a "#1" or "#2" NB six conversion offered in the right environment (BaT?). But that's just a guess, as the only super nice narrow sixes I've seen come up for sale are real 914-6s.

[gereed75]

Mine is a hot rod driver quality original six. Very happy with it and it presses all the right buttons for me.

I am just happy to see that the market now recognizes just about all of the 914 variants including race cars (sorry wild custom variants, you are still not there, and probably never will be)

I equate the weapons grade 914 conversions to the conversion of mid year aircooled SC 911’s to long hood RS conversions. These seem to currently be economically viable as you see some spec cars being built for sale and I guess making money in the $120 x 150,000 range. The six conversions are not far behind. I think they will get there but the market is smaller.

Nice thing is that is where a lot of good 3.0/3.2 engines come from that end up in six conversions

[pencap914]

I'm just starting my 914/6 conversion, and needless to say it's been intimidating seeing these "weapons grade" builds that cost several times my annual salary. I certainly respect these builds, I'm sure a 914 with a hotrod 3.8 "big block" is one hell of a ride.

Regardless of cost, I think I would rather have a "small block" 914. If I wanted a muscle car, I would have gotten a Corvette, or (insert other Detroit iron here). Big block weapons grade 914's and more modest builds seems to be a similar dispute as the 427ci vs 289ci engine in the Shelby Cobra. Both equally respectable, the 427 Cobras seem to get a lot more attention and certainly sound and look more impressive. The 427s are more common, and seem to fetch more coin in a sale. However, I get more excited when I see a 289 Cobra. I've never driven either one, but I would imagine the lighter weight and more tame engine would make it more confidence inspiring to drive in a winding canyon or track.

Its interesting to me to see how these big block weapons grade builds sell for multi x that of a more modest build (See the recent 2.7L 914 that sold for less than 30k on BAT.)

I would build a hot rod 4cyl for my 914, but they just don't make the same noise as the 6. I originally wanted to find a 2.2 - 2.4 engine for my build, and I purchased a long block 2.4 (err, short block... engine doesn't turn over... long story) but ended up finding a 2.7l engine for a decent price since they're more common.

I do plan on installing steel fenders and 5-lug conversion, because that was always the dream of mine since high school, and I simply have not outgrown that. I wouldn't call this build of mine a "weapons grade" but I also wouldn't call it a stock 914/6 replica. It falls somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Call it, a "spicy consumer grade(?)" build.

I chose the lowly profession of Civil Engineer, which means I have to keep a close eye on my budget. If I do a lot of the labor myself, and be patient about sourcing used parts for a decent price, I think I could get by with a car that will cost me $30-$35k. I certainly don't think it would be worth building it then trying to sell it off for a profit. I would be selling my time for free.

[JeffBowlsby]

I have looked the other way on this thread long enough, hoping its terminology would go away, but it seems to be proliferating the longer this thread lingers. "Weapons grade" is not cute, not flattering - it can be offensive to some. It stigmatizes and mischaracterizes our cars.

References to "weapons grade" and "914" in the same sentence are spreading the wrong message about our cars. Can we just forget this term please? Lets agree to not glorify violence. Pick a more respectful term.

914s are not weapons. With all the recent press about mass shootings and related mayhem, lets not associate our cars with violence.

[mepstein]

Marty's car. Weapon of mass destruction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[Sway Bar]

Marty's car. Weapon of mass destruction. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

I don't know if this is WMD...more like Greek Mythology...call it at Chimera (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I love it. I love all builds, especially if one undertakes it themselves.

[Cairo94507]

Well, if that phrase ever applied to a 914, it would be that car for sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)