HID headlights in the pods for Neo914, Pop-up headlights are not in the plans.. Options

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (Rand @ Sep 14 2005, 07:03 PM)

All the new cars have plastic covers over the HID lights. What are they using? Is the problem with material or proximity to the light source? If the cover was a flat piece, it would be super easy and inexpensive to replace. I guess the problem with that is it wouldn't match the contour of the factory lens. So this begs the question....... who needs the factory contour, and who is OK with the CSOB flat piece that might need replacing if it yellows? Just throwin' stuff out there. Thanks Felix for working on this!!

I suspect Lexan or similar plastic material on OEM cars.
The pods are beautiful and prominent, why flatten them? My goal is to emphasize or add shape and form where possible. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

Manufacturers have big budget, team engineered, 3D CAD designed, latest technology, DOT tested lights,

whereas I'm adapting available components in a very small area with existing shapes, and on a working man's time and budget...



...and enjoying it! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif)

[jonwatts]

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 08:44 PM)

components in a very small area

This statement should be underlined, in bold, and large print. For your sake I hope the amount of space between the lamp and cover of most modern HID setups is by choice and not necessity.

[GWN7]

The material that the sample is made of is suppost to be UV stable. That's why I wanted you to test it with the lamps your using. To see how it reacts to the possible heat/UV created by the lamps.

If it works I can move ahead with making a outside stock mold and then making a inside out of plaster/clay. Then carving the plaster/clay smooth. Then having it covered with ceramics.
This will give the clasic outside look with a clear inside (no flutes/lines) and be as thin as the stock lens.

The other option I thought of is with a glass blower. There is a high temp silicone that is used in metal casting. Make a outside mold out of it and then the inside part as described above. Then have a glass blower insert almost molten glass into the silicone part and stamp the glass with the ceramic portion. If this works this would give a stock clear glass lens without the flutes and lines. And a way to make replacement glass fog light lens....

The problems with this is how the ceramic & the silicone would react to the high temps of the molten glass. Also there is the problem of making the creamic insert.

As to sand casting....every imperfection in either the original or the sand will show up in the product. There is also the problem with molten glass being poured into wet sand (even slightly damp, which the sand has to be to hold it's shape) of the steam which is produced distorting the product making it unuseable. Not to mention how to make the inside smooth enough to be useable.

I've done sand casting...when metal is poured into it there are imprefections which are polished out later. One place I know of that uses cast metal pieces in their products receives them with lots of extra metal on them and then they are thrown into a "rock polisher" the size of a small car for several days to make the smooth enough to be used.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with these lenses are that they are a one off...if you went to a commercial plastic lens manufacture and told them you wanted 100,000 pairs they would prob eat most of the mold development costs (or hide it in the lens costs).

Anyone want 199,998 lenses? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 07:51 PM)

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 08:44 PM) components in a very small area This statement should be underlined, in bold, and large print. For your sake I hope the amount of space between the lamp and cover of most modern HID setups is by choice and not necessity.

For practical purposes these lights have a sealed body and lense to use without a cover. My major concern is that they have enough light output and can be aimed properly for night driving.

The pod shaped lense is for aesthetics but one of the most challenging features. For mass availability, they would probably be still used as an alternative to colored signal lenses. You would have to be (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif) to use it for HID headlights... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (GWN7 @ Sep 14 2005, 07:52 PM)

The material that the sample is made of is suppost to be UV stable. That's why I wanted you to test it with the lamps your using. To see how it reacts to the possible heat/UV created by the lamps. If it works I can move ahead with making a outside stock mold and then making a inside out of plaster/clay. Then carving the plaster/clay smooth. Then having it covered with ceramics. This will give the clasic outside look with a clear inside (no flutes/lines) and be as thin as the stock lens. The other option I thought of is with a glass blower. There is a high temp silicone that is used in metal casting. Make a outside mold out of it and then the inside part as described above. Then have a glass blower insert almost molten glass into the silicone part and stamp the glass with the ceramic portion. If this works this would give a stock clear glass lens without the flutes and lines. And a way to make replacement glass fog light lens.... The problems with this is how the ceramic & the silicone would react to the high temps of the molten glass. Also there is the problem of making the creamic insert. As to sand casting....every imperfection in either the original or the sand will show up in the product. There is also the problem with molten glass being poured into wet sand (even slightly damp, which the sand has to be to hold it's shape) of the steam which is produced distorting the product making it unuseable. Not to mention how to make the inside smooth enough to be useable. I've done sand casting...when metal is poured into it there are imprefections which are polished out later. One place I know of that uses cast metal pieces in their products receives them with lots of extra metal on them and then they are thrown into a "rock polisher" the size of a small car for several days to make the smooth enough to be used. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The problem with these lenses are that they are a one off...if you went to a commercial plastic lens manufacture and told them you wanted 100,000 pairs they would prob eat most of the mold development costs (or hide it in the lens costs). Anyone want 199,998 lenses? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Ok, I'll experiment with it this weekend. What should I look for, softening? I held it under a Halogen for a few minutes but I think it should be tested for hours, just not sure my porta-battery will last.

Did they even produce 100k 914's? I'll be surprised if you could sell 914 of them. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[GWN7]

Hook it up to the battery with it assembled....put the battery charger on the battery. see if the heat it produces distorts it. It shouldn't yellow.

[jonwatts]

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 09:56 PM)

For practical purposes these lights have a sealed body and lense to use without a cover.

Right, but do they get hot?

[effutuo101]

What if you raked the angle of the turn signal back about 10-12 degrees. you could elongate the hole and fit the low/high beam and turn signal at the top or bottom. It might flow better with your NEO design..I would be happy to find a fender to see how it would look. i think in California, as long as the headlight is 18 inches above the ground you are ok

[Graphikhaus]

Polycarbonate, aka "Lexan" is probably the easiest answer.
Low refraction, great clarity, (88% @ .125" thick), UV stable, easily glued, can be heat formed at around 350°F, soft enough to give without breaking.

It occured to me that the lense shape is roughly elliptical and an ellipse can be sliced out of a curved tube. I don't have the ideal diameter figured out yet, but I would guess around 3.5" OD, .125" wall Lexan tube. Cast tubing, not extruded.

Also, a lense that is taller or "rounder" (not as flat as the stock one) would achieve three things:
1. Less of an angle is presented to the light beam = less refraction.
2. Increased distance from the lamp = less chance of heat distortion.
3. Stronger, more spherical shape.

Big Doug

[TonyAKAVW]

How about injection molding? Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want.


-Tony

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 09:22 PM)

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 09:56 PM) For practical purposes these lights have a sealed body and lense to use without a cover. Right, but do they get hot?

I'm not following your questions, all light has heat (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[Dr. Roger]

I think Big Doug has a heck of a good idea.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/clap.gif)

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 09:49 PM)

How about injection molding? Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want. -Tony

Let's say you can buy a "really" nice 914 for how much it would cost. Can it be amortized with sales is the big question. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (Graphikhaus @ Sep 14 2005, 09:30 PM)

Polycarbonate, aka "Lexan" is probably the easiest answer. Low refraction, great clarity, (88% @ .125" thick), UV stable, easily glued, can be heat formed at around 350°F, soft enough to give without breaking. It occured to me that the lense shape is roughly elliptical and an ellipse can be sliced out of a curved tube. I don't have the ideal diameter figured out yet, but I would guess around 3.5" OD, .125" wall Lexan tube. Cast tubing, not extruded. Also, a lense that is taller or "rounder" (not as flat as the stock one) would achieve three things: 1. Less of an angle is presented to the light beam = less refraction. 2. Increased distance from the lamp = less chance of heat distortion. 3. Stronger, more spherical shape. Big Doug

Very nice thinking! Would cast be optically clear enough? I agree the lenses are quite flat. If I were to start with a new mold or CNC, I'd increase the profile for aesthetics but then it may unfavorably distort the beam...

[GWN7]

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 09:49 PM)

How about injection molding? Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want. -Tony

QUOTE

A prototype shop gave me some these lense options: -injection mold = $$$$$$$ (not hundreds) -CNC block of clear plastic = $$$$$ -vacuum mold a few sets from a plastic sheet then machine mount = $$

If you insert a decimal point and put a 1 for each $$.......10k for a injection mold to be made


+ you have to have a "original" to make the mold off of

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (GWN7 @ Sep 14 2005, 10:16 PM)

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 09:49 PM) How about injection molding?  Hard to say how many it would take to pay for the die to be made, but you could have whatever shape you want.   -Tony QUOTE A prototype shop gave me some these lense options: -injection mold = $$$$$$$ (not hundreds) -CNC block of clear plastic = $$$$$ -vacuum mold a few sets from a plastic sheet then machine mount = $$ If you insert a decimal point and put a 1 for each $$.......10k for a injection mold to be made + you have to have a "original" to make the mold off of

Is that CAN$? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Let's see, if 100 of us put up $100 ea... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Anyone own an injection molding company? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[jonwatts]

QUOTE (Neo914-6 @ Sep 14 2005, 11:07 PM)

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Sep 14 2005, 09:22 PM) Right, but do they get hot? I'm not following your questions, all light has heat (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

Well, you mentioned a few times that these were sealed units like it shouldn't matter how close the lens is to the cover you're trying to make. I'm thinking that they might throw off a lot of heat and that's why cars tend to not have them right up against the cover.

But really all this is bench racing that is keeping your from making any real progress. I sincerely suggest you stop listening to us (but please keep posting the updates!) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[TonyAKAVW]

QUOTE

Anyone own an injection molding company?

yes actually... My father in law.... in Argentina.... where the peso is currently 1/3 of a dollar..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

-Tony

[neo914-6]

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Sep 14 2005, 10:30 PM)

QUOTE Anyone own an injection molding company? yes actually... My father in law.... in Argentina.... where the peso is currently 1/3 of a dollar..... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif) -Tony

Then what are we waiting for? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

Quando?

[neo914-6]

Popped the bucket in the donor fender...

May start with another bucket to fit a signal bulb on top...