2056 build advice requested from those that have been there, June 23 update: original heads rebuilt and will be reinstalled with 96's, will save up for the full upgraded LN Options

[DRPHIL914]

Ok the short story is my motor is out of the car due to lost compression on #3, found loose intake valve seat no damage no injury to lower end. I have been researching head replacement options and rebuild options, but considering rebuilt head could cost close to $1500, and new basic spec heads are close to $2000 or more, although some new castings from AA , Mark Henry and others are doing rebuilds on those , and tis a great option with out breaking the bank, i find myself looking more at the LN RS+, which is the cream of the crop heads for our motors, and i am 90% sure i will be committing to this purchase , i have the opportunity to get set , SO with that said i would be foolish to not consider upgrading the P&C's too.

the LN heads have the larger valves and are ported polished etc , so i think a 2056 is where i want to go because i can do that build by getting new 96's and not have to to into the lower case and change the cam etc. yes i may do that some day but for now i cant afford that, so i am getting these heads and new 96 P&C's
that way i can use the d-jet tuned for the 2056 but go with upgraded FI soon as i can afford it.
first questions that need to be answered is,
1. do i need to change out my push rods? - this should not change the deck height. I could stay 1911 and just add the heads but while it is hear and new P&C are not that expensive, i am not doing Nikki's cant afford that, but 94 and 96's are same and icould have my cylinders sent to them for hone and bored then coating, or just get new-
so what hgave you all done , has anyone done this, leave the stock cam in place and build the 2056 with the new heads and cylinders?/

the also what else do i need?

Thanks for the advice

Phil
-
also suggestions on the FI issue as well. what kind of expense am i looking at for a upgraded system?

Phil
- i have a 123ignition distributor so i can continue to use it or change but it works great alone or with d-jet.

[rfinegan]

Changing the push rods to Chrome moly has advantages too.
1) You can run ZERO valve lash
2) EZ to adjust
3) Quieter valve train
4) I little more performance with tighter lash (more lift)
5) Optimize Valve Geometry Gross lift and 1/2 lift Reduces were and tear to components

Deck heights can change:
1) Different Cylinders (even with same stroke) brand to brand and even between cylinders for some brands
2) Shimming Registers for desired Compression ratio
3) Heads ( fly cutting heads to squared clean mating or reduce head volume) will changes the required deck height and CR
5) With or without head gaskets ( I did without)

FOR ME: The only way to tell for sure if you need Push Rods is to calculate the geometry when mocking up the components with an adjustable push rod. Then decide what length pushrods are needed and if stock pushrods will do

AS for Heads
We all have our views of what we like and the configurations

With the stock cam 2056 its hard to beat the STOCK 3 bolt intake Porsche fuel injected 2.0L heads

Bigger valves and port work may see fewer returns if a new cam is not selected and reduce port velocity for good street use. Jake did a recommend 2056 build sheet HERE
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...83920&st=20

I not trying to change your decisions or choices. You have a good plan. Just getting you some addition info to let you know what people are doing out there

[Bleyseng]

I went with the Raby 9550 cam that works well with Djet.
96mm pistons which you can have your cylinders bored out and have Keith Black make pistons for or buy a set.
Len Hoffman heads for sure using AA castings all rebuilt with thermal coatings.
2.0 crank and rods

This puts you into a fun 115-120hp engine that runs cool and dependable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[DRPHIL914]

Changing the push rods to Chrome moly has advantages too.
1) You can run ZERO valve lash
2) EZ to adjust
3) Quieter valve train
4) I little more performance with tighter lash (more lift)
5) Optimize Valve Geometry Gross lift and 1/2 lift Reduces were and tear to components

Deck heights can change:
1) Different Cylinders (even with same stroke) brand to brand and even between cylinders for some brands
2) Shimming Registers for desired Compression ration
3) Heads ( fly cutting heads to square or reduce head volume) will changes the required deck height and CR
5) With or without head gaskets ( I did without)

FOR ME: The only way to tell for sure if you need Push Rods is to calculate the geometry when mocking up the components with an adjustable push rod. Then decide what length pushrods are needed and if stock pushrods will do

AS for Heads
We all have our views of what we like and the configurations

With the stock cam 2056 its hard to beat the STOCK 3 bolt intake Porsche fuel injected 2.0L heads

Bigger valves and port work may see fewer returns if a new cam is not selected and reduce port velocity for good street use. Jake did a recommend 2056 build sheet HERE
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...83920&st=20

I not trying to change your decisions or choices. You have a good plan. Just getting you some addition info to let you know what people are doing out there

I went with the Raby 9550 cam that works well with Djet.
96mm pistons which you can have your cylinders bored out and have Keith Black make pistons for or buy a set.
Len Hoffman heads for sure using AA castings all rebuilt with thermal coatings.
2.0 crank and rods

This puts you into a fun 115-120hp engine that runs cool and dependable (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

it seems that i would be well served to change the cam to get the most out of a major upgrade like the new RS+ heads and increased cylinder size. just getting the KB pistons and the heads is over or right at my budget at this time, i could probably get that 9550 cam, but really would have to wait 6 months or so to spend the $$ to open the case and swap out the cam and lifters etc. no harm in maintaining for now the stock cam other than as i read in the links robert gave above vrom Jake saying it will make more heat if i interpret that correctly. I didnt have an issue with heat before , head temps were actually really good. shouold be better with new rs heads.

[nditiz1]

When I redid my 2.0, I was only doing a top end. I went cheap on the P&C and got AA ones. Mine was also a 2056 build. I went semi cheap on the heads and had the Len AA specials. They were still pricey at ~$1500. I was able to reuse my stock pushrods (possibly milling a little off them for correct geometry).

If I were in the same situ again, which I was, but had a 6 sitting so I didn't go the 4 route, I would have done things a little different. I would have gotten AA heads again, but just trusted the guidance of both Marks on getting them setup correctly from a competent head machinist. OR put out the bat signal for someone who had decent ones sitting for a build. Len is a wizards with heads, but being more money conscience I would have went cheaper as it is difficult for me to put tons of miles on my car with other aircooled's that need to be driven. So I don't necessarily need them to last 200k.

So AA P&C, AA heads, then you can set whatever deck height you want depending on the heads and cylinders you get. The minor mods can add up as well. Swivel adjusters and solid spacers are nice. Needed...no, but maybe that can fit the budget. Budget conscience you are probably still looking at close to 3k to rebuild a top end for parts and machining things you can't put together at home.

[JamesM]

So, my opinion(s)...

I think you are going to be leaving a lot of power on the table and/or creating a lot of work for yourself by not committing fully to a direction up front. If you are planning on going aftermarket injection in the future make that decision now and build accordingly. Staying with a d-jet cam really limits what you could otherwise do, and going back to change the cam out later is a LOT of work, you are basically building 2 motors.

BUT

Unless you are dumping money on someone to do it for you or are very knowledgeable/capable yourself aftermarket injection can be a LOT of work/steep learning curve and to stack that on top of a freshly built motor may be more of a headache than most want to get into.

SO

Either commit to d-jet or commit to aftermarket injection.

If you commit to d-jet then its 96mm P&Cs + heads + tweaking the d-jet. I personally wouldn't go that route though. At this point I see d-jet as a potential liability on a new motor and having to tweak it to make it compatible with a 2056 just elevates that complexity/liability while leaving a lot of power on the table.


If I were in your shoes, and accepting cost as a factor, this is the approach I would probably take:

1. Find someone dumping a running turnkey 1.7 or 1.8 motor and pick that up on the cheap (because 1.7/1.8s tend to be cheap due to people upgrading)
2. Build an aftermarket injection system on top of the 1.7/1.8 motor. This will give you a chance to tackle the learning curve of aftermarket injection and tuning on a known good/ already broken in/low cost motor. When you are done you will have both a drivable car and a sorted injection system that will transfer over to whatever motor you ultimately want to build. And TBH, I would take a fully dialed in megasquirted 1.7/1.8 over a carbed or poorly tuned d-jet 2.0 anyday.
and then longer term...
3. Build a good 2056 (or even larger) with upgraded cam/compression/heads the way you ultimately want to, not being limited by a d-jet cam, using your existing motor.

Bottom line, figure out the fueling first. You will minimize downtime, save yourself time/money in the long run, and ultimately wind up with a better performing result in the end. Cost for the aftermarket injection can vary wildly depending on how much you want to do yourself vs pay someone else and how much of it you want to be with brand new parts. Realistically could be anywhere from $500-$3000. My current preferred way to build them comes in around ~$1200 in parts but thats getting brand new modern injectors/wideband o2 and a few other nice bits as well.

So maybe $500 for a known running short stroke motor and $1200 for injection bits to get you back on the road and ahead of the game to take whatever motor you want to build without limits.

[Mark Henry]

So, my opinion(s)...

I think you are going to be leaving a lot of power on the table and/or creating a lot of work for yourself by not committing fully to a direction up front. If you are planning on going aftermarket injection in the future make that decision now and build accordingly. Staying with a d-jet cam really limits what you could otherwise do, and going back to change the cam out later is a LOT of work, you are basically building 2 motors.

BUT

Unless you are dumping money on someone to do it for you or are very knowledgeable/capable yourself aftermarket injection can be a LOT of work/steep learning curve and to stack that on top of a freshly built motor may be more of a headache than most want to get into.

SO

Either commit to d-jet or commit to aftermarket injection.

If you commit to d-jet then its 96mm P&Cs + heads + tweaking the d-jet. I personally wouldn't go that route though. At this point I see d-jet as a potential liability on a new motor and having to tweak it to make it compatible with a 2056 just elevates that complexity/liability while leaving a lot of power on the table.


If I were in your shoes, and accepting cost as a factor, this is the approach I would probably take:

1. Find someone dumping a running turnkey 1.7 or 1.8 motor and pick that up on the cheap (because 1.7/1.8s tend to be cheap due to people upgrading)
2. Build an aftermarket injection system on top of the 1.7/1.8 motor. This will give you a chance to tackle the learning curve of aftermarket injection and tuning on a known good/ already broken in/low cost motor. When you are done you will have both a drivable car and a sorted injection system that will transfer over to whatever motor you ultimately want to build. And TBH, I would take a fully dialed in megasquirted 1.7/1.8 over a carbed or poorly tuned d-jet 2.0 anyday.
and then longer term...
3. Build a good 2056 (or even larger) with upgraded cam/compression/heads the way you ultimately want to, not being limited by a d-jet cam, using your existing motor.

Bottom line, figure out the fueling first. You will minimize downtime, save yourself time/money in the long run, and ultimately wind up with a better performing result in the end. Cost for the aftermarket injection can vary wildly depending on how much you want to do yourself vs pay someone else and how much of it you want to be with brand new parts. Realistically could be anywhere from $500-$3000. My current preferred way to build them comes in around ~$1200 in parts but thats getting brand new modern injectors/wideband o2 and a few other nice bits as well.

So maybe $500 for a known running short stroke motor and $1200 for injection bits to get you back on the road and ahead of the game to take whatever motor you want to build without limits.

Or just run a cheap pair of Weber's till you can afford the FI.

I broke in my 2600cc 78mm stroke 102mm JE/nickies engine on SDS EFI, never worried a bit about the FI or AFR.

[colingreene]

What kind of fuel injection are you planning.
If its fuel injection with dual carb style throttles I would do what mark recommended and run it on carbs till you can do that.
That way you can put a more aggressive cam in it that will make you some more power without having to handicap it for the factory fuel injection.

I have a Web 86A I think. and its extremely drivable and runs out to about 5500. It will rev to 6 but really its not doing you a ton of good.

[ottox914]

Check my sig for details on my 2056 build. I'd think about a running used 1.7/1.8 to stuff in the car for now, and save up for some carbs and a cam. Or start building up an EFI solution. I run SDS on mine, and while some will say its limited in function, I say its got all it needs to get the job done and not alot more to confuse you in your tuning learning curve. If you are going with those sweet heads, get a good cam to match. The OEM cam is a big part of what holds our type 4 engines back.

[adolimpio]

Just finished my 2056.

Started with the original 1.7 case
Added stock 2.0 crank and tins
H-beam rods
JE forged 96mm pistons
Biral lined cylinders
Raby 9550 cam kit with chrome moly push rods, parkerized lifters and swivel feet adjusters.
AA Casting heads from Len Hoffman
FJ67 injectors
Replaced MPS diaphragm and tuned to 12.5 AFR full load and 14 partial load
123 dizzy with vacuum advance
Timing set to 30 degrees at 3500 RPM
Brad Penn break-in oil for cam break in and about 100 miles
Then used Valvoline 20w50 for remainder of break-in
At 500 miles changed oil again, adjusted valves, checked timing and torqued exhaust nuts

Car runs absolutely great. Very smooth and noticeable increase in power.

I'm right up the road in Greenwood so we could meet somewhere if you'd like to check it out.

[Mark Henry]

What kind of fuel injection are you planning.
If its fuel injection with dual carb style throttles I would do what mark recommended and run it on carbs till you can do that.
That way you can put a more aggressive cam in it that will make you some more power without having to handicap it for the factory fuel injection.

I have a Web 86A I think. and its extremely drivable and runs out to about 5500. It will rev to 6 but really its not doing you a ton of good.

Depends on the exhaust, with SSI's for heat I'd keep it the stock plenum. I'd play around with a bigger TB, might even custom build a new center section but I'd keep it single TB.
A mild cam like the 86a is still OK with the above and the aftermarket EFI, but anything bigger than say a mild SCAT C-25 will need upgraded valve train.

To run ITB's you really need a header, cam, heads, valve train, etc.

[DRPHIL914]

What kind of fuel injection are you planning.
If its fuel injection with dual carb style throttles I would do what mark recommended and run it on carbs till you can do that.
That way you can put a more aggressive cam in it that will make you some more power without having to handicap it for the factory fuel injection.

I have a Web 86A I think. and its extremely drivable and runs out to about 5500. It will rev to 6 but really its not doing you a ton of good.

Depends on the exhaust, with SSI's for heat I'd keep it the stock plenum. I'd play around with a bigger TB, might even custom build a new center section but I'd keep it single TB.
A mild cam like the 86a is still OK with the above and the aftermarket EFI, but anything bigger than say a mild SCAT C-25 will need upgraded valve train.

To run ITB's you really need a header, cam, heads, valve train, etc.

i have SS HE and one of Ben's SS muffer with center twin out tips. I have thought about using the slightly larger throttle body, keeping it otherwise stock single TB intake, some guys here have used that van/bus TB so that might work to add just a bit more air in. With a new heads with new valves and springs etc like the LN RS heads, that would go really nice together. FI wise i have a couple choices but something like what PMB is putting together would be an option too, it can keep a lot of the stock looking stuff but gets rid of the MPS, and old brain, new sensors etc.
will see but i can use a tuned d-jet stock stuff for now, as i have decided for sure i am doing the 2056.

[mepstein]

What kind of fuel injection are you planning.
If its fuel injection with dual carb style throttles I would do what mark recommended and run it on carbs till you can do that.
That way you can put a more aggressive cam in it that will make you some more power without having to handicap it for the factory fuel injection.

I have a Web 86A I think. and its extremely drivable and runs out to about 5500. It will rev to 6 but really its not doing you a ton of good.

Depends on the exhaust, with SSI's for heat I'd keep it the stock plenum. I'd play around with a bigger TB, might even custom build a new center section but I'd keep it single TB.
A mild cam like the 86a is still OK with the above and the aftermarket EFI, but anything bigger than say a mild SCAT C-25 will need upgraded valve train.

To run ITB's you really need a header, cam, heads, valve train, etc.

i have SS HE and one of Ben's SS muffer with center twin out tips. I have thought about using the slightly larger throttle body, keeping it otherwise stock single TB intake, some guys here have used that van/bus TB so that might work to add just a bit more air in. With a new heads with new valves and springs, if i do ported gfgggg

I would get you engine back to running as inexpensively as possible and while you are able to drive it, start planning the parts for your engine rebuild. Maybe even buy another core engine or case to build the performance engine.

[DRPHIL914]

What kind of fuel injection are you planning.
If its fuel injection with dual carb style throttles I would do what mark recommended and run it on carbs till you can do that.
That way you can put a more aggressive cam in it that will make you some more power without having to handicap it for the factory fuel injection.

I have a Web 86A I think. and its extremely drivable and runs out to about 5500. It will rev to 6 but really its not doing you a ton of good.

Depends on the exhaust, with SSI's for heat I'd keep it the stock plenum. I'd play around with a bigger TB, might even custom build a new center section but I'd keep it single TB.
A mild cam like the 86a is still OK with the above and the aftermarket EFI, but anything bigger than say a mild SCAT C-25 will need upgraded valve train.

To run ITB's you really need a header, cam, heads, valve train, etc.

i have SS HE and one of Ben's SS muffer with center twin out tips. I have thought about using the slightly larger throttle body, keeping it otherwise stock single TB intake, some guys here have used that van/bus TB so that might work to add just a bit more air in. With a new heads with new valves and springs, if i do ported gfgggg

I would get you engine back to running as inexpensively as possible and while you are able to drive it, start planning the parts for your engine rebuild. Maybe even buy another core engine or case to build the performance engine.

i know thats good advice but in order to get it running i have to have new heads, so it opens up the pandoras box of well if i am going to spend $1800-$2000 on basically stock heads might as well spend just a bit more for much better that you dont have to replace on the next level of build. BUT yes its tempting ot just have my heads fixed wit new seats and bold them back on.... but thats not going to be less than about $1000 or so to have them machined, new seats installed and get some new stock valves and springs and put them back on. - Cheapest way to go though.

[mepstein]

Yes. Spend the $1k now and you will have a good running engine. Then start saving for the performance engine. You will save at least 1k on that engine since you can take the time to plan it out and not be limited or compromised by trying to make some of your current parts work with the future performance parts. There are always deals to be had if you have the time and patience.

[cgnj]

What's the lead time for for HAM to deliver a set of 2.0 clone heads? Does he offer a big valve version of this head?

Your going to have to tear down more than you think. Absolute minimum is pull the crank & rods. The rods should be re-bushed. Crank already out, May as well have it checked.
It's already open, swap the cam.

Why I would spend more of your money.
The cost of re-bushing your rods is so close to the price of new H-beam rods, I'd put them in. I bet you save more than 1Kg of rotating mass (free Hp).

Put the carb cam in now. you're going to do it anyway.

Don't buy used Webers. Empi sells a Drla clone. It's received good reviews on the aircooled forums like Shoptalk. From personal experience, Dell are much easier to tune & are much more streetable. Plus down the road, if a stoker ends up in the picture, Drla 40's can support a 2270.

I built my first 2.0 motor in the early 80's from an ad in Porsche Hot VW. I bought the parts with absolutely no engine experience. My friends still talk how much fun that car was to drive.

Hope this helps

Carlos

[Superhawk996]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[mihai914]

You can also try and find a local shop that knows how to rebuild Harley heads. Chances are the machinist used to own or work on air-cooled VWs at some point.

Then buy the needed hardware from Pelican, AutohausAZ, EMW, etc.

If you don't have broken screws or studs the bill won't be that expensive and it will get you going until you build a better motor.

[Bleyseng]

Yes, Len offers big valve 2.0L heads as I have a set in mine-44x38 and I got the thermal coatings. Wakes up the engine wth the Raby 9550 cam so its a screamer engine. Still have to-get it on a dyno

[mb911]

Just curious what would a total in budget be on an engine proposed by Phil?