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> Front suspension options..., looking for options/opinions
groot
post Jul 26 2005, 01:40 PM
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Milliken's Race Car Vehicle Dynamics is a very good reference, too.
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ArtechnikA
post Jul 26 2005, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (groot @ Jul 26 2005, 03:40 PM)
Milliken's Race Car Vehicle Dynamics is a very good reference, too.

i don't have that one yet.
another one for the shopping list...
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914_1.8t
post Jul 26 2005, 02:10 PM
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QUOTE (groot @ Jul 26 2005, 11:19 AM)
What are you doing with the car? Maybe I missed that part, but it's pretty important.

Thanks for the info...i'll check out some books.

Regarding the build...not really building it for a particular class or venue but rather just having fun with the build and trying to get the best performance I can out of this car.
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Brett W
post Jul 26 2005, 03:08 PM
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As far as software goes, check into
SUSPROG 3D
Performance trends
Bill Mitchell Win Geo
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Mueller
post Jul 26 2005, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (Brett W @ Jul 26 2005, 02:08 PM)
As far as software goes, check into
SUSPROG 3D
Performance trends
Bill Mitchell Win Geo

Brett, which one do you have and what are the costs for these on average??
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lapuwali
post Jul 26 2005, 03:33 PM
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QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Jul 26 2005, 11:42 AM)
QUOTE (groot @ Jul 26 2005, 03:40 PM)
Milliken's Race Car Vehicle Dynamics is a very good reference, too.

i don't have that one yet.
another one for the shopping list...

Unfortunately, it's out of print, as is his "Chassis Design" book. William F and Douglas L Milliken, SAE 1995.
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ArtechnikA
post Jul 26 2005, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jul 26 2005, 05:33 PM)
Unfortunately, it's out of print, as is his "Chassis Design" book. William F and Douglas L Milliken, SAE 1995.

half the stuff i buy these days has been out of production for at least as long :-)
things turn up, if you know what to look for, and pay attention...
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lapuwali
post Jul 26 2005, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Jul 26 2005, 01:36 PM)
QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jul 26 2005, 05:33 PM)
Unfortunately, it's out of print, as is his "Chassis Design" book.  William F and Douglas L Milliken, SAE 1995.

half the stuff i buy these days has been out of production for at least as long :-)
things turn up, if you know what to look for, and pay attention...

Yup, though it can often be quite dear. I finally found a copy of Ricardo's High Speed Internal Combustion Engine, but it was more than $200 for a fairly well-used copy.
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TimT
post Jul 26 2005, 03:51 PM
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I think Bill Mitchells whole chassis software suite is about $300...
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Mueller
post Jul 26 2005, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jul 26 2005, 02:33 PM)
QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Jul 26 2005, 11:42 AM)
QUOTE (groot @ Jul 26 2005, 03:40 PM)
Milliken's Race Car Vehicle Dynamics is a very good reference, too.

i don't have that one yet.
another one for the shopping list...

Unfortunately, it's out of print, as is his "Chassis Design" book. William F and Douglas L Milliken, SAE 1995.

I just checked out the SAE website, both are still available....

I get a 20% discount for being a member, let me know if you need a copy....
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ArtechnikA
post Jul 26 2005, 04:22 PM
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QUOTE (Mueller @ Jul 26 2005, 06:17 PM)
I get a 20% discount for being a member, let me know if you need a copy....

what's the total for both, delivered to 19446?
(20% off is a good deal, but if it's 20% off $400, i can't afford it...)

PM or email if you like...
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Brett W
post Jul 26 2005, 06:15 PM
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I am pretty sure Milikken is not out of publish. It is one of teh most compehensive books on suspension design out there. It is a real snoozer though. If you don't have and completely understand Puhn, Adams, Smith, and Vanvalkenburg, you will have a very hard time with Milikken. It is very mathmatically intensive.

Susprog 3D is 200$ it is the one I am using right now. http://www.susprog.com/purchase.htm

This guy has a nice book out also. I haven't bought it but it on my list.
http://www.rowleyrace.com/

http://www.mitchellsoftware.com/ I have seen this software in use but have never used it myself. I would like to give it a try someday.

Paul Haney also has a nice book out on the racing tire as well. A must read for race car guys. There is also a compilation of SAE papers by Carrol Smith called Racing Chassis and Suspension design that should be good as well.

You can get Most of these books through SAE or watch EBAY sometimes they pop up there used for a reasonable price.
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groot
post Jul 27 2005, 06:48 AM
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If you don't have a set goal in mind for your suspension, you're in trouble. A suspension design is an exercise in compromise.....and if you don't have priorities you'll be all over the place.

If you just want to learn about it, optimize your current setup. Learn why it does what it does. I, personally, wouldn't start with a blank sheet of paper unless I was building a GT car.

Start by making a list of what's important to you....
-handling on a smooth track
-handling on a rough track
-street comfort/ride
-stance-----looks
-determine your personal package restrictions (Do you want to eliminate the option of carrying a spare tire in it's position? How about the fuel tank/cell location?)
-any rules to follow?
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Brett W
post Jul 27 2005, 07:13 AM
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Kevin is politely trying to say I have lost my mind. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smilie_pokal.gif)
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groot
post Jul 27 2005, 07:15 AM
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Sort of.... no, not really.

You had your goals and reasons to do what you're doing... as did I. The point is: focus and direction is required.
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ArtechnikA
post Jul 27 2005, 07:21 AM
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QUOTE (groot @ Jul 27 2005, 08:48 AM)
A suspension design is an exercise in compromise....

no kidding.

and don't forget this: almost all contemporary race cars, certainly everything with a full body (i.e. sports cars, sedans...) use POWER STEERING...

this tells me they have highly optimised geometries at the cost of high effort. now that alternate power steering mechanisms (e.g. electric on-rack demand pumps) this is a good tradeoff - unless you're leading the race when it fails, as occurred to an Audi at Sears Point recently...

but the point is - you're trying to optimis the suspension geometry of an antique car. the really current stuff will presume lots of things we don't typically consider, like power steering.

inboard dampers and pullrod activation, anyone?
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phantom914
post Jul 27 2005, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Jul 26 2005, 02:22 PM)
QUOTE (Mueller @ Jul 26 2005, 06:17 PM)
I get a 20% discount for being a member, let me know if you need a copy....

what's the total for both, delivered to 19446?
(20% off is a good deal, but if it's 20% off $400, i can't afford it...)

PM or email if you like...

The "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" is $99 at Amazon. I remember other SAE publications that I have checked into in the past also ran about $99, don't know if that is typical.



Andrew
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groot
post Jul 27 2005, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ Jul 27 2005, 05:21 AM)
this tells me they have highly optimised geometries at the cost of high effort.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that today's real race cars have power steering in order to have very agressive ratios, not because of their suspension design.
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Brett W
post Jul 27 2005, 11:02 AM
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With an SAE discount I think Milliken is 79$. Anyone need one?
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neo914-6
post Jul 27 2005, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE (914_1.8t @ Jul 26 2005, 12:10 PM)
QUOTE (groot @ Jul 26 2005, 11:19 AM)
What are you doing with the car? Maybe I missed that part, but it's pretty important.

Thanks for the info...i'll check out some books.

Regarding the build...not really building it for a particular class or venue but rather just having fun with the build and trying to get the best performance I can out of this car.

I thought your goal is to putyour buds with their high dollar sports cars to shame with your antique low budget 914... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)
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