Members with 74 1.8, information needed for history of cars Options

[wonkipop]

heres one for you @Van B. your car's buddy. built 67 before yours on a friday,
yours was the following monday. hope they didn't have a hangover.

a link for you. don't know how old ad is. someone got a bargain?

https://www.grautogallery.com/vehicles/3202/1974-porsche-914


12/73 VIN 4742910723
EC-B from engine tune sticker and hose layout.
(no legible emission sticker image unfortunately - but the tune up sticker is legible).
K # 4959543. Friday 7th Dec 1973. (pearl harbour day car).
Sold new in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

[Van B]

Someone definitely got a deal. I’m surprised there are so many 914s out there owned by people who aren’t on this forum. I mean less than 120k were made in total and I’m sure half are dead and gone by now.

[wonkipop]

Someone definitely got a deal. I’m surprised there are so many 914s out there owned by people who aren’t on this forum. I mean less than 120k were made in total and I’m sure half are dead and gone by now.

i'd say 2/3 are dead or on blocks or growing grass underneath them.

[wonkipop]

here is one for @Arno914

the only pic i could find of an AN engine.
the silver 1.8 in the porsche museum.
it was a tiny image on some facebook preview page i scooted across looking for elusive EC-As.

[Arno914]

Thank you, wonkipop! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

this one is good.

tourist delivery - delivered Osnabrueck.
for a person who lived in hawaii.
but its to californian spec. (and its got a code attached whatever that means?)

VIn 4742916808

K# 1529514 = tuesday 9 april 1974 makes it a 4/74
(its delivered for pick up on 16 april, 7 days after its inception number stamp).

had emission stickers and tune up stickers in photos but resolution was not good enough to blow up and determine.
however it had 607 on the tin. from mr. b's website we know 607 is also on a EC-A california delivered car tin. L-Jet914 has the other EC-A variant 606 on the tin.

the EC-Bs have 604 and 605 on the tin.

fair chance its a EC-A.

checking the engine photos, it does not have advance hose from distributor to TB hooked up. in fact - no hose. i'd say this one has an original throttle body. but photos do not reveal the T/B. i'd hazard a guess this is an intact EC-A.

i wonder if mr. b has copies of this documentation and saw it at the time it was for sale.












because it got delivered new to a US citizen in germany, it got a wolfsburg radio and not a dealer installed sapphire. nice.




EDIT

[MCShack]

I have not worked that out. Would you mind breaking that down for me?!
Useless info, but still very cool lol!

5019505

50 = 50th week of calendar year (1973)
1 = day of week. = monday.
9 = karmann factory at osnabruck (spelling?)
5 = how they write zero (germans? don't ask), if its a 6 means they went over 100 for the day.
05 = fifth car of the day.

if i have that wrong @SirAndy will put it right.

nice and early in the day when they started to weld the body together.
before they went off to the pub at lunchtime. mine was done in the danger period,
can't work out if it was before lunch or right after lunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I've read that on BaT and here a few times now about the 5 for a zero in German thing, but never see anyone speak up and confirm or dispute it, but I'm pretty sure that is not correct, however, I'm not German, don't speak, understand or write in German. What about all of the other zeros in the VIN, Chassis, Engine, Transaxle, etc, etc numbers? Why just the 5th digit of the Karmann factory at Osnabrück (correct spelling in German), Germany? I have a theory about it but hope someone with the answer will reply before I embarrass myself by suggesting something more stupid than usual. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[wonkipop]

I have not worked that out. Would you mind breaking that down for me?!
Useless info, but still very cool lol!

5019505

50 = 50th week of calendar year (1973)
1 = day of week. = monday.
9 = karmann factory at osnabruck (spelling?)
5 = how they write zero (germans? don't ask), if its a 6 means they went over 100 for the day.
05 = fifth car of the day.

if i have that wrong @SirAndy will put it right.

nice and early in the day when they started to weld the body together.
before they went off to the pub at lunchtime. mine was done in the danger period,
can't work out if it was before lunch or right after lunch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I've read that on BaT and here a few times now about the 5 for a zero in German thing, but never see anyone speak up and confirm or dispute it, but I'm pretty sure that is not correct, however, I'm not German, don't speak, understand or write in German. What about all of the other zeros in the VIN, Chassis, Engine, Transaxle, etc, etc numbers? Why just the 5th digit of the Karmann factory at Osnabrück (correct spelling in German), Germany? I have a theory about it but hope someone with the answer will reply before I embarrass myself by suggesting something more stupid than usual. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

my only thought on this @MCShack is that 5 and 6 were allocated to 914 production.
ie 5 distinguished it as 914 model, and 6 if 914 production went over 100 per day.

karmann were making beetle convertibles and karmann ghias at the same time in the factory. i'm going to guess their karmann plates use 1, 2 ,3 and 4 in the same way.
but i don't know. have not seen the karmann plates on those cars.
no official beetle convertibles were sold new in aus and the ghias are rare on the ground here.

i'm guessing this because we collected a good selection of the engine paint stamps on the 74 1.8s and its clear that VW assigned the first letter of those stamps to particular models the engines were destined for. for instance up to end of 74 the engine stamp number starts with 6 for 914s. for 412s that got the same engine (more or less) it starts with 5. for buses with type 4 motor it starts with 4. so i think in a similar way karmann were using the 5 in their plate number to mean both 914 and 914 production up to 100 cars a day?

if anyone has a ghia or a beetle convertible they could take a look at that karmann plate on their cars and confirm whether this speculation is off the mark.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

bit more info for you @MCShack .

number on karmann door plate (body #) is a VW convention introduced in 1970 ----- for all vw models produced at all german factories.

karmann fitted in with that VW convention.
don't know what karmann had before 1970.

k produced 3 different vw models off their relatively smaller production line at the plant,
(if compared to wolfsburg or hamburg).

still doesn't make it entirely clear about the 5 and the 6 in the 914 body number stamp.

to further confuse i think they switch it to a 0 or 1 instead of 5 or 6 in 75? (don't really know, others would).

of interest they do a number shift with the engines in 914s in 75.
they go from a 6 as the first number on the engine code paint stamp to a 9.

eg. 49 state 1974 1.8 is either a 604 or 605 engine stamp.
49 state 1975 1.8 is either a 918 or 920 engine stamp.





personally i think the last three numbers is more strictly an order number.
which happens to coincide with production number on the day, but its actually a number generated alongside an order and a build spec. the whole way down the production line would have been a piece of paper work with that number assigned to build up information. the piece (or pieces) of paper were collected at the end of the build and filed probably (But not thrown away). in the USA and in Australia you can sometimes find that build sheet paper work stuffed in the ford/gm/chrysler car somewhere. but not in a VW.

i also think the cabs and the ghias had that small plate in illustration above fitted to them, while 914s got the fancy plate in the door jamb.
if you got hold of some plates from ghias and cabs and looked at the third number from the end it would definitely shed some light.

[MCShack]

bit more info for you @MCShack .

number on karmann door plate (body #) is a VW convention introduced in 1970 ----- for all vw models produced at all german factories.

karmann fitted in with that VW convention.
don't know what karmann had before 1970.

k produced 3 different vw models off their relatively smaller production line at the plant,
(if compared to wolfsburg or hamburg).

still doesn't make it entirely clear about the 5 and the 6 in the 914 body number stamp.

to further confuse i think they switch it to a 0 or 1 instead of 5 or 6 in 75? (don't really know, others would).

of interest they do a number shift with the engines in 914s in 75.
they go from a 6 as the first number on the engine code paint stamp to a 9.

eg. 49 state 1974 1.8 is either a 604 or 605 engine stamp.
49 state 1975 1.8 is either a 918 or 920 engine stamp.





personally i think the last three numbers is more strictly an order number.
which happens to coincide with production number on the day, but its actually a number generated alongside an order and a build spec. the whole way down the production line would have been a piece of paper work with that number assigned to build up information. the piece (or pieces) of paper were collected at the end of the build and filed probably (But not thrown away). in the USA and in Australia you can sometimes find that build sheet paper work stuffed in the ford/gm/chrysler car somewhere. but not in a VW.

i also think the cabs and the ghias had that small plate in illustration above fitted to them, while 914s got the fancy plate in the door jamb.
if you got hold of some plates from ghias and cabs and looked at the third number from the end it would definitely shed some light.

Thank you for your thoughtful and timely responses. I know that Karmann was making a few different cars at the same time, presumably with a different numbering code but maybe not as different as thought. I will look into that more when I have time. The 914 Chassis numbering system changed over from the 95xx format to the 90xx format in Sept-Oct of 1974 on '75 MY cars which they started making in July of 1974, so the early '75 models have the 9500 chassis numbers and those made around the 36th or 37th week of 1974 starting getting the 9000 chassis numbers through the end of production in Dec. 1975 when the last '76 MY cars rolled off the line at the end of the following year.

One thing that I discovered was in the 36th or 37th week of 1974 not only did they switch over from the 9500 chassis numbers to the 9000 chassis numbers, but some have a 1, 2, or even a 3 in the 5th position (or 3rd # from the end) of the chassis number (ie, 9100, 9200, and 9300). The "1" in that position was always presumed to be a rollover from 0 to 1 when production exceeded 99 cars in one day, except that examples I have found of the last 3 digits are like 147 and 163 which are nearly double normal high production numbers, and I have not found any in the 110s, 120s or 130s but have a rather small sample to work with which now includes all '75 BaT cars and all '75s from 914World's database. That said, the examples I do have with a "2" or a "3" in that 5th digit position are really waay out of range with no examples of over 100 cars being made on any of the same days where those odd examples exist.

I agree with your comment about the last three numbers being more than just a chronological order of cars made on a particular day of the week and that it has something to do with a build specification. I've tried to find things in common with the cars that do not fall in the "normal" numbering order or system, but have come up with very little other than an unusually high number of the limited examples I have are cars with either tan, brown or white leatherette interiors, but some are the much more common standard black interiors. The exterior colors range almost the full gamut from Yellows to Reds to Greens, so no help there. It is difficult to gather much more data in build specs w/o window stickers or similar docs to back this up.

To your point about other cars produced by Karmann, the BMW E9 series (ie, BMW 3.0 CS) were made from 1969-1975, the exact same years as the 914, as was the Triumph TR6 series 1969-1976 in addition to the VW and Ghia cars made before, during, and after the 914 production years. Not being familiar with those cars I have not begun to look at their Chassis or VIN numbering systems to see if they have similar formats and if they were even made in Karmann's Osnabrück, Germany plant where all of the 914s were made.

Sorry for butting in and derailing this thread, but hopefully I have helped bring it back to life along with another thread on a similar subject of Chassis numbers for '75 MY cars started several years ago. I have found this thread helpful and interesting, but I will start a new thread more on point to my particular question regarding the Chassis numbers that fall completely out of the normal range of most all known numbers. Please feel free to contact me with any information you may have to help shed more light on this or related subjects.

Thank you again for your time and responses, have a great day. Cheers, MC (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[wonkipop]

@MCShack

some other stuff i dug up from files on research last year.


for comparison.
production plate for a 1974 Karmann Ghia, built jan 74
nr = 0449113

production plate for my 74 914, built jan 74
nr = 0459543 (built the day after the kg above).

production plate for 74 super beetle cabriolet. built feb 74
nr = 0659323.

for the 5th number it looks like
1 = karmann ghia.
3 = beetles (or perhaps super beetle cabs).
5 = 914s.

the numbers are spaced with a gap between.

----

also i knew i had a build sheet found in a VW tucked away somewhere.
i think i found this on a jeans beetle website run by an enthusiast but can't remember exactly anymore. anyway, thanks to that enthusiast site with acknowledgement.



i think the story was this build sheet was found under the back seat (in common with stories you hear about some fords, gms and chryslers). highly prized if happen to be in a car but not all cars had them to find.

the terms the germans use are interesting.
it called a WORK INSTRUCTION.
and very clearly it has what we would call the karmann number - or more universally throughout VW = the production number.
its called the KENN NR. which translates directly as KNOW NR.
ie know what the car is that you are building? i dunno. no pun intended.
so its really an order number that is coming through the channels from the dealers, main distributors, sales department, to the factory?

of interest this build sheet also noted the time of the day. i'm guessing its the minute of the day given its written as 81 probably made sense at wolfsburg or similar sized plant where they would have been churning them out. i think the 0 in this work order kenn number means the wolfsburg factory.

you could well be on to something with your question about the use of 6 in 914s and other numbers later in 75.
i mean - an order could get cancelled? or revised? or reassigned?
so there are all sorts of possibilities there as well as just the idea of going past 100.

production figures i calculated about 74 MY i sent through to you in a PM.
this does suggest during nov dec 73 they were making more than 100 cars a day (all of which were 1.8s). but in jan 74 this figure virtually halved as a daily number (again all of which were 1.8s). they resumed making 2.0 L cars sometime in feb 74 and mixing 1.8s with 2.0s for the rest of the MY.

[wonkipop]

@MCShack

i had a bit of a scout through the members vin register here again.

i can find quite a few 600 number 74MY cars in late 73 - which accords with the production numbers in excess of 100 per day for that period start of nov to end dec 73.
my maths has them doing 133 cars per day for those two months.
then dropping to half that rate in jan 74.
thats based on vin numbers and k numbers from members here we researched last year.

---

i went and had a quick look through the 75MY numbers you have been looking at.
mostly in that late 74 period you were talking about up to week 37.

i noticed very early on in 75MY they were still using the 500 numbers!

then after a little while they seem to be using the 000 series.

and then as you note around week 37 up popped a 300 series.

have i got that right? or have i made a mistake looking at the vin register here?

if i did read the stuff right it could be a couple of things.

a mistake on the production plate. but i note you have found others.
and its clustered around that time. so i don't think it likely was a typo mistake.

what i do know is that karmann ghia production ceases at end of 74MY and VW Sirrocco production commences. things would have possibly been in a little turmoil changing the plant over to the new line, scheduling in production start up etc.

VW head office would have been shuffling around the paperwork numbers for ordering particular models?

they were certainly doing this with the engines at that moment.
the 412 went out of production. the type 3 had gone out of production the year before.
the water cooled engines were coming in. a big reshuffle on all the engine codes was done right about that time from 74MY into 75MY across their range.

what could have happened is that 75MY started out retaining the 500 series (with 600 spillover) from years before. then VW assigned a new set of numbers in the 000 series (with 100 spillover). and then there is a glitch for a month or so where they reshuffle the numbers again and its given the 200 series (with a 300 spillover).
and then it appears to shuffle back to the 000 series and on to the end?

it could well be for a short period of time the 914 production line was assigned the 200 series with a 300 for spillover.

then it reverts.

sirroccos from that time would have production plates.
those numbers around that time - week 37 would tell a story.
possibly super beetle convertibles might as well.

[wonkipop]

@MCShack

was lying around last night feeling sh#tty from a vid booster shot.
so i did some focussed googling on beetle cabs.

here is a 75 model built week 40 of 74.
k number has a 3 in it for 5th number!




using the 3 like the week 37/38 914 you found!


i came across one more.
75 cab - week 42 of 74 using 0 as the 5th number.
the production plate looks a bit fishy though with washers under the rivets.
been off and then reattached?




bit hard to find sales ads showing these plates in beetle cabs.


but of interest.
77 model cab.
using 3 as the 5th number.



real hard to turn up Scirocco plates for 74/75.
i did find a legible one for a 79.
they were using 6 as the 5th number but.....you need a 74/75 to see what might have been going on.

def something odd in that period of time you have pinpointed.
VW cabs are getting number sequences indistinguishable from some 914s you have found!!!!! and just 3 weeks apart in time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)


EDIT

bingo -
here is another one for you. maybe what you are looking for.
75MY cab. built 37 week of 74. 2 as 5th number.




tends to say VW were using 2 and 3 for beetle cabs in 74 for 75 MY.
given examples above. and were still using 3 at least in 77

but.....------> its an exact match, for the week of production, as that 75 914 you found with the 2 in its karmann plate.



????

---------------------

EDIT 2

did some further cross checking because i took a close look at the vin number tags as well.

the red one i just posted all checks out.
vin no starts with 115.
the rest of the numbers put it at aug 74 production according to beetle vin listing chart on thesamba.

there is something a bit wrong with the 77 i posted above.
it has 112 vin. thats a 71. i assume there was a typo on the sale advert and it was meant to be listed as a 71 not a 77. according to that vin kg were using the 3 on the production plates in 71.

--------------------

[MCShack]

@wonkipop

Thanks for your replies, I keep finding new directions to look, but no clear answers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Another VIN/Chassis Number thing that I also want to know is what date or what VIN number 914s did the Chassis number tags first appear in the spare tire compartment in the front trunk as can be seen in the example below located on the side of right fender wall. I'm pretty sure they were not there in 03/74 with VIN numbers approximately 4742915xx and Chassis numbers approx. 10595xx or thereabouts.

The earliest ones I have run across without doing any specific research to find the exact date range falls about 05/74 with VIN number approx. 4742918xxx and Chassis numbers approx. 21195xx or thereabouts.

I have done no scientific research and just noticed this by accident while researching for the date when the Chassis numbers changed from the 9500 format to the 9000 format sometime after week 36. Now that I have discovered this it drives me to find as close to the exact answer as possible. Previously I had thought it did not start until the '75 MY cars, but with Porsche nothing is ever that easy or clear, especially around model year changes as it seems some things change over slowly rather than on the day of the first new MY car build date.

Oh well, another new VIN/Chassis number/date project to start researching. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

Cheers, MCShack! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

(IMG:https://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zPLM_A4.jpg)