How to make a '74 1.8L sound less like a VW bug, Would this necessitate a muffler change? Muffler modification? Exhaust tip? Options

[wonkipop]

Pairing 1-4 and 2-3 is no better than pairing 1-2 and 3-4. Adjacent cylinders in the firing order should not be paired. It doesn't work well from a performance standpoint.
The correct pairing is 1-3 and 2-4. Front pair, Rear pair.

right

so a type 4 muffler is still not ideal pairing.
pairs 1-2 and 3-4. or seems to from drawings.

and neither is a beetle/type3.
it appears to pair 1-4 and 3-2 in crossover muffler.

[wonkipop]

@Superhawk996 . I would call that a lightweight fab. I bought the headers used and deox’d and electro polished them with a home brew of OSPHO, battery acid, and oxalic acid. The mid pipes were new test pipes that I install cats in. And the mufflers I found on Craigslist and did a the same treatment on them as the headers. Then I did the work on the tips.

The finish you see there is the Jet Hot ceramic polish finish

@wonkipop . I just don’t think the muffler on our cars is anything more than a price point. Nothing about that exhaust was meant to optimize sound or performance.

@ChrisFoley

You may have overlooked when I said I was thinking of a 4 into 2 (2 into 1) and that I was thinking of a particular sound. I understand why you made the design choices you have for your product. But I certainly don’t agree with what you say as “the correct way”. There are many design factors that come into play. 4-2, 4-2-1, 4-1; the length and diameter of the primaries, mids, and collector. On a short mid pipe, the pulse can be into the final collector before the adjacent pulse shows up.
But in general I would agree that your order should generate slightly more torque all else being equal.

@Van B - i think you're right.
hence the more truck like sound, at least to my ear, when compared to a beetle.

it probably got something to do with decibel levels.
not so much in the USA but perhaps germany?
i think the germans were fairly strict on noise levels at that time (and still are?).

i can recall reading something about air cooled vws being a real problem to get through mandated standards for noise levels because all the sound was concentrated in one place at the rear of the car. air cooled clatter and exhaust gave the db meter a real punch as the car did the drive by test. conventional cars aside from having water cooled engines also spread the sound reading over a greater distance.

type 4 muffler might be as much about passing a db test as a price point?

one thing i do know is an old speedster sounds a lot better out the stock standard factory exhaust than a 914.

[VaccaRabite]

@ChrisFoley 's exhaust systems start at the head and replace the heat exchangers with headers. You have to go back to when Chris and Jake were working together, but there are dyno charts somewhere in the archives that show Chris's headers actually making power as opposed to just noise which is what most the muffler options at the time made. Plus they are sexy as hell.

The Triads work really well too, don't have a VW sound, retain your exchangers. But they are loud and heavy.

Zach

[930cabman]

Well the Bursch are out and I’ll be honest, they look GOOOOOD!
https://sierramadrecollection.com/Bursch-St...-74-p56001.html

I’ve got an email out to Sierra Madre to see if Bursch can make a system to fit 1.8L HE’s. But if not, I may just pull the trigger on these and 2.0 HE’s since I need new ones anyway.

The Tri-Y configuration won’t be the same sound as my idea, but it will still be a nice torque improvement up top… especially since this pipe routing will make the primaries equal length.

Who wouldn't want to go this route?? but the $3k + is just too much for this cheapskate. I will be trying my hand a fabricating a set

[wonkipop]

Well the Bursch are out and I’ll be honest, they look GOOOOOD!
https://sierramadrecollection.com/Bursch-St...-74-p56001.html

I’ve got an email out to Sierra Madre to see if Bursch can make a system to fit 1.8L HE’s. But if not, I may just pull the trigger on these and 2.0 HE’s since I need new ones anyway.

The Tri-Y configuration won’t be the same sound as my idea, but it will still be a nice torque improvement up top… especially since this pipe routing will make the primaries equal length.

Who wouldn't want to go this route?? but the $3k + is just too much for this cheapskate. I will be trying my hand a fabricating a set

even more in $aud! then add freight on a heavy item!!!!

won't be going there. you guys are spoilt for choices.

vintage speed muffler is interesting option to me if i have a spare grand at some stage.

i've got good ss heat exchangers and i like my heater! headers are not ever going to be on my list.

looks to me like vs 2.0 muffler is the same as 1.7/1.8 - a good thing.
have worked out just how different the 1.8 muffler is from the orig factory 2.0. the 2.0s got a scaled down 911 muffler. and to be honest i hardly ever take the engine past about 4200/4500..........not much happens to make it worth it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

i think if @mjsdt914 got hold of one of v s mufflers or a tangerine racing one (looks in principle the same and chris foley is a local usa manufacturer - support your national industry) he'd get a good sound. which might actually be more VW-ish when you think about it - but in a good way. the type 4s definitely got the raw end of the prawn when it came to mufflers and noise regulations.

[Maltese Falcon]

Pairing 1-4 and 2-3 is no better than pairing 1-2 and 3-4. Adjacent cylinders in the firing order should not be paired. It doesn't work well from a performance standpoint.
The correct pairing is 1-3 and 2-4. Front pair, Rear pair.

Chris...looks like the fabrication dept. didn't get the memo regarding proper Pairing of T4 tubes; this set of "Headers" is pictured on the Bursch iGram page.
Maybe they are just after Sound and not Perf ¿?
Good craftsmanship on the TiG work, polished T304...anticipating RWHP (independent before/after) dyno testing results (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/marty914.jpg)

[wonkipop]

@Maltese Falcon

marty, what does that crossing join of the pipes do?

[Maltese Falcon]

@Maltese Falcon

marty, what does that crossing join of the pipes do?

In all of my decades working on different exhaust designs, systems, installs, race or road cars; I've used X or H pipe merges only in the post-collector /pre- final muffler. X and H pipes tend to balance the exhaust= nice throttle response. These X merges appearing on the header pipes could be there for pairing just ahead of the secondary piping (not in view) which will lead into the final muffler / perhaps looking for more torque with a basic Tri-Y design. Their instaG also states that a custom type of HB can attach around these primary pipes; so the X might just be there to generate a bit more heat (surface area) for the HB's.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/marty914.jpg)

[Van B]

I love Bursch craftsmanship. TIG welding has been a part of my life for most of my life so, for me it’s art. But I have to be honest, the design of those headers is silly.

Further, after looking more at the Bursch muffler, I realized that they claim “equal length” when in reality, the long primaries (front cylinders) are made even longer by the muffler.

[wonkipop]

@mjsdt914

there is this.
dansk sport muffler for 1,8

https://www.fvd.net/de-en/17091403/sport-mu...ized-steel.html

its got a bit of a description with the ad in that link that implies that though its the same externally as all the other dansk mufflers its got less constrictions to flow inside it.

its interesting as i am almost sure this is what was on my 914 in 89 and i took off in about 2000. i've still got it and when i shine a torch into the inlet holes where the HE pipes join up i think i can see empty chambers rather than the feed pipes that go into the standard quiet muffler that dansk do and which i posted drawings of.

i think i will cut open that old muffler i still have just to see whats in there compared to the documented standard quiet type 4 muffler.

i reckon back in the day there was a standard offering that was a quiet muffler.
but if you wanted one you could get hold of a sport muffler. looked exactly the same but had a deeper and louder tone. with less restricted flow, though that would have been pretty academic given its still a vw muffler. but they probably sounded better.
its been a long time time since i had the one on mine and it was pretty shot towards the end and just sounded like a bad muffler. but i think i recall when i first go the car it had a nice deep tone. the s s one i now have sounds tinny by comparison - esp since its combined with ss heat exchangers. though it does improve in tone when its warmed up and hot i have noticed.

[Superhawk996]

For the OP.

Plug & Play. Shameless plug for someones F/S over on the classifieds. You even get a sound clip.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=359580

[Superhawk996]

I love Bursch craftsmanship. TIG welding has been a part of my life for most of my life so, for me it’s art. But I have to be honest, the design of those headers is silly.

Further, after looking more at the Bursch muffler, I realized that they claim “equal length” when in reality, the long primaries (front cylinders) are made even longer by the muffler.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) You guys are killing me . . . it's a VW type 4 engine . . . there was a reason they were never used in F1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Yet, I still keep reading this thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Van B]

I love Bursch craftsmanship. TIG welding has been a part of my life for most of my life so, for me it’s art. But I have to be honest, the design of those headers is silly.

Further, after looking more at the Bursch muffler, I realized that they claim “equal length” when in reality, the long primaries (front cylinders) are made even longer by the muffler.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) You guys are killing me . . . it's a VW type 4 engine . . . there was a reason they were never used in F1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Yet, I still keep reading this thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ha! I have negative zero sympathy for you my friend! My entire career has been an exercise in futility. By comparison, nit picking exhaust design is pure recreation lol!

[wonkipop]

I love Bursch craftsmanship. TIG welding has been a part of my life for most of my life so, for me it’s art. But I have to be honest, the design of those headers is silly.

Further, after looking more at the Bursch muffler, I realized that they claim “equal length” when in reality, the long primaries (front cylinders) are made even longer by the muffler.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) You guys are killing me . . . it's a VW type 4 engine . . . there was a reason they were never used in F1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Yet, I still keep reading this thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

f%ck off. i've got a 76 hp cigarette lighter flame throwing mini monster that needs at least another 0.25 hp extracted from it, no matter the cost. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[930cabman]

I love Bursch craftsmanship. TIG welding has been a part of my life for most of my life so, for me it’s art. But I have to be honest, the design of those headers is silly.

Further, after looking more at the Bursch muffler, I realized that they claim “equal length” when in reality, the long primaries (front cylinders) are made even longer by the muffler.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) You guys are killing me . . . it's a VW type 4 engine . . . there was a reason they were never used in F1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

Yet, I still keep reading this thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Ha! I have negative zero sympathy for you my friend! My entire career has been an exercise in futility. By comparison, nit picking exhaust design is pure recreation lol!

"negative zero sympathy" is that something like "double secret probation"

Maybe I should stay away from this post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

For the OP.

Plug & Play. Shameless plug for someones F/S over on the classifieds. You even get a sound clip.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=359580

Do you have any idea of the sound level of a Stage 1 Silencer? Friends and neighbors will hate you and if driving for more than 5 minutes on the highway, ear protection is recommended.
Although that is a great setup for autocross or de.

[Superhawk996]

For the OP.

Plug & Play. Shameless plug for someones F/S over on the classifieds. You even get a sound clip.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=359580

Do you have any idea of the sound level of a Stage 1 Silencer? Friends and neighbors will hate you and if driving for more than 5 minutes on the highway, ear protection is recommended.
Although that is a great setup for autocross or de.

Oh - now there’s new criteria? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[Van B]

For the OP.

Plug & Play. Shameless plug for someones F/S over on the classifieds. You even get a sound clip.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=359580

Do you have any idea of the sound level of a Stage 1 Silencer? Friends and neighbors will hate you and if driving for more than 5 minutes on the highway, ear protection is recommended.
Although that is a great setup for autocross or de.

Oh - now there’s new criteria? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

ra·tion·al·ist
/ˈraSH(ə)n(ə)ləst/

noun
a person who bases their opinions and actions on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response.

This is why no one likes rationalists lol!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

[g911]

Could you speak up, I wasn't listening as you were droning on and on...or maybe that was me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[vitamin914]

For the OP.

Plug & Play. Shameless plug for someones F/S over on the classifieds. You even get a sound clip.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=359580

Do you have any idea of the sound level of a Stage 1 Silencer? Friends and neighbors will hate you and if driving for more than 5 minutes on the highway, ear protection is recommended.
Although that is a great setup for autocross or de.

After awhile it isn't that loud... but why is everyone whispering... pardon me?

Loud pipes save lives, or so they say. One thing, it doesn't sound like a bug and it doesn't sound like a fart can like on some Hondas.
Could be a wee bit quieter for my tastes. It does get to be somewhat annoying after an hour or so on the freeway.

MSDS headers ($583), https://www.msdsinc.com
Hindle custom (motorcycle) muffler ($280), https://www.hindle.com