Making some decisions about racing, might get rid of the 914... might not... Options

[nebreitling]

so, i want to race. i've wanted to race forever, and i've seen this becoming more possibly the last year or two. i'm tentatively planning to get my scca license next march, but may wait til 2007.

so i've been throwing around ideas and doing a lot of research into what class i might race in, what cars i might rent or buy, and of course, the possibility of racing the 914. it doesn't seem like a cost-effective or logical platform, but hey, i've already got one and it's fairly well sorted.

I can race the 914 w/ my engine (very fast 2056) as is and no weight requirements in the catch-all class of ITE. it's basically an anything-goes DOT-race-tire class. I'd run mid-pack or slower (probably slower), so I don't know how much fun that'd be. ITE times at thunderhill range from 2:00 to 2:20. we'll see what I run this saturday, but I'm guessing that with some experience, the car and I are capable of running 2:15's... maybe less, but I ain't going to be running 2:00s without serious power AND tire width AND some real experience.

now, with a stock 2.0 engine and some ballast, I'd be in ITB, where I'd have a chance. front runners in ITB are running 2:16s at thunderhill. an ITB car is almost exactly a BP car with ballast. BP cars can run 2:17 to 2:25 at thunderhill. so with some experience, I'd have a chance to be competitve.

stock 1.7 engine and very little ballast is ITC (2:20s and up). this is a class it'd do well in, but a stock 1.7 would break my heart after being used to my engine... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)


SO, the latest idea is to turn the car into a BP (PCA class)/ITB car. I could run PCA AX and TTs, as well as race SCCA (never mind the proposed points system). seems like it might be a decent compromise, in terms of having a class/classes where I can judge my improvement and progress.

If I sold my engine (just broken in) for a fair price I could pick up a decent used 2.0, do a budget top-end on it, and hopefully have a little money to spare for safety equipment. I fucking love that engine though. it really *makes* the car....

now, I'd run my current engine in NASA GTS-1 (http://www.gtschallenge.com/Rules/2005rules.htm ) if it was in Norcal, but it's only in SoCal right now... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) that seems like a cool group.


above are the only ways I can really envision racing the 914. vintage racing isn't active enough for my plans (I'd like to do a full 10-11 race season).

if I sell the 914, the doors are wide open. spec rx7 (scca) and pro7 (nasa) are basically the same class in norcal, so I could run both series and get all the damn seat time I wanted. miatas are also a possibility, but cost about 2x as an rx7 to get into. running costs appear similar, though -- and slightly less than a 914, which will never be as reliable. frankly, i think a spec series would be a better place for me to learn racing.

I definitely do not have the space nor can I probably afford to keep the 914 and buy another race car. it'd break my heart to get rid of the 914 i've built, and i'd sure as hell miss being as active a part of this awesome community, but i want to race that bad.

so if anyone wants to make this decision easy for me and buy a very well-prepped AX/TT/Street car for, say $6750, let me know.

maybe i'll just buy a cheap kart for 06...

all input welcome
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Trekkor]

Like I said in our off-board conversations,
Keep what you've got for now.
Get the safety equipment you need and run all the DE's/TT's and track days you can the rest of this year and next.

Get your SCCA license if you want. If you still want to race wheel-to-wheel, you will have 10-15 events behind you in a car you know.

P.S. get a SIX. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

KT

[Brett W]

Is the 914 reliable enough for track day events? If so use it to get your drivers license. One big reason people don't get their competition license is, failure to finish the school. Get the license and then figure out where you want to run.

If you are looking for track time and cheap racing, then look for the NASA Honda Challenge. Tons of competition and plenty of racing to do.


If you decide to run a Spec Miata, we'll burn you at the stake. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/aktion035.gif)

[rhodyguy]

exspensive hobby. wish i had your kind of money. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) . you'll need the 914 to go to portland.

k

[DanT]

Nathan,
Your times at TH will probably be slower than you think until you get some seat time on the big tracks.
The FM records are in the 2:12 - 2:15 range for John Seidels car and a very well preparred 2.0 6. The BP records are in the same range
All cars were very very well preparred with drivers with years and years of experience.
Th is a challenging track.
If you are doing the HSDS the focus will be on identifying turns and the correct line with turn ins and braking points. Timing is frowned upon for HSDS drivers. It just depends on who you instructors are. Some are willing to let HSDS participants run 80%+ others don't.
I will be there for the weekend doing my track communications and control For GGR.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Howard]

Not to piss on your parade..
I'm gonna sound really old here, and I am. BTDT. A/X to GP bikes to Cal Club to CanAm. I quit during my first practice with the fast cars. Those guys are GOOD!
Racing as an amateur sucks if you're trying to win. You won't have the resources to compete without sponsors, and the sponsors are looking for guys a lot faster than you. If you can run with the privateers and have fun, great. If not, even in 1970 it cost over $10k per race (Lotus 19). It's at least 5 times that amount now. Can you afford that?
If not, go trade paint with spec racers and have some fun. Mazda is very active, POC has 944 spec and Boxster spec is coming. $25K plus $10K per season. Still an expensive hobby, but doable.

[Mueller]

I've heard a few times that the Spec Miata and RX-7s can be "nerve racking" due to quite a few of the racers consider cars in those spec classes "disposible", meaning they don't give a $h!t about thier car or your's....so it could actually end up costing more money.......

[nebreitling]

thanks for the input, guys. i ain't looking to race with the big boys. i think IT or Pro7 or wreck-miata should be doable for $8k/year in expendables running midpack. more if there is, errrr, body work involved, as mike suggested.

dan, i'll see you out there at the hsds. i didn't mean to sound cavalier at all, looking foward to an educational, safe experience.

kevin, i'm selling my body. business is good.

howard, you're fucking old, man. really. old.

[nebreitling]

QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 2 2005, 09:36 PM)

Is the 914 reliable enough for track day events?  If so use it to get your drivers license.  One big reason people don't get their competition license is, failure to finish the school.  Get the license and then figure out where you want to run.

definitely. engine and suspension are well sorted, dialed in, and reliable. did superb at streets of willow. consistent top-5 AX car. needs some more precautionary stuff (cooler, accusump) and an IT cage. that's it.

[ChrisFoley]

Race the 914 in ITB! You will have a lot of fun and you control the budget by how many races you do. As long as you don't crash or get hit a lot it doesn't have to be terribly expensive. After you have some real experience you can start spending more money on parts that enhance the car's performance. Believe me, the sky's the limit with any car even the spec ones but 6-10K per year can go pretty far if you do most of the work yourself.
The rich guys buy lots of spares and test them to see which ones are marginally better, then sell off the lesser parts to the lower budget racers.
As long as you're not running DFL there will be someone to race. BTW, doing well at wheel to wheel competition is harder than you think! Unless you're a natural it takes years to be very good.
If winning is what's most important to you then just buy someone's winning car and get some top notch instruction.
In any case hanging out with the club you intend to race with is a good idea. Start NOW!

[VegasRacer]

Here is the way I did it, and what I learned.

I had a nice stock 914 and after a few DE events I decided I wanted to go racing. I bought a Spec RX-7. I had a lot of fun and learned how to drive much better in the 5 years I raced with the SCCA. I had several podium finishes and was sitting in 4th place division wide when I sold the car.

I sold it because I decided I wanted to race a 'Porsche'. I could have bought a truck load of Mazda's for what I dumped into my 914 race car. Even so, I was never able to be competitive in POC or PCA. Those guys have way to much money. I then turned to vintage racing. I did OK but I missed the close competition I had in the Spec class. I sold the 914 race car and got Elvira, a /6 that I can both drive on the street and run the track (but no wheel to wheel action).

My advice for the most bang for the buck - get into a Spec class. I spent $10 - $15 K per year to race the Mazda. It will cost you several times that to track a 914 if you want to be mid pack. Add a 0 if you want to be in the front.

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (Howard @ Aug 3 2005, 01:54 AM)

You won't have the resources to compete without sponsors...

Amen to that.

here's a snippet from a post over on the 356 List the other day:

QUOTE

BTW, I was campaigning my 54 coupe in Southern California in early 1960's. I was in the Sunbeam dealership (Sunbeam 1600 Alpines) also ran in D Class), when a fellow walked in with a titanium crank and valves. The parts manager looked at them, they exchanged a few words and the parts manager opened a book and pencilled in a number. He scratched the same number onto the crank and said: "OK, now it's a stock part" It was costing me about $3500 a year to keep the coupe in clutches, trans, modifications and transportation and with that I quit and let the dentists race.

[ChrisFoley]

QUOTE (VegasRacer @ Aug 3 2005, 07:44 AM)

I spent $10 - $15 K per year to race the Mazda. It will cost you several times that to track a 914 if you want to be mid pack. Add a 0 if you want to be in the front.

I must be doing something wrong then.

This is the first year I spent more than $10K, and the first year I had any major sponsors outside my own one man company.
I do have one big advantage though, any fabrication required costs me $0 labor.
You have to consider your resources; you need at least two of these four: time, talent, money, more money.

[groot]

I agree with Chris on this one. $10-$15k to run a spec car.... that's a lot of money. But, it may be how each person is counting.....

My advice.... figure out what kind of racer you are. Are you a builder/racer or just a racer... no shame intended. My SM friends do very little work on their cars and spend their time learning to drive faster and tweaking, where I'm pulling my engine out after most races. Their weekends are spent discussing what tire pressures to run and cornering lines. My weekends are filled with tuning carbuerators and fixing my clutch release mechanism. But, having bitched about that, I can say there's nobody with a bigger smile on their face than I when I'm racing.

Once you figure out which you are that will dictate which car you run. No matter what, if you run a 914, you will be working on it a lot (or paying someone else, too). It's really a matter of how time you want to dedicate to working on the car. I've really tried to make my car very simple, but I'm still doing bigger projects every weekend than the SM guys.

[VegasRacer]

Over the course of a full season my total racing related expenses averaged almost a thousand per race weekend. SCCA membership, race license, entry fees, gas, tires, travel expenses, hotel, food for the weekend, awards banquet, and the list goes on. Add in parts, repairs, body work, tools, supplies, equipment, mods and upgrades, etc., etc.

Sure, some weekends were not much more than $300 - $400.
T-bone a spinner and you get more than a DNF.

[ChrisFoley]

QUOTE (groot @ Aug 3 2005, 09:12 AM)

No matter what, if you run a 914, you will be working on it a lot (or paying someone else, too).

That's exactly what it comes down to.

Hey Kevin, are you going to be ready for Grattan next weekend?

[groot]

Some costs for reference....

My personal experience:
Cost to build ITB Rabbit GTI-$11k (to the limit of the rules, but not paying others to do the work)
Cost to race ITB car per weekend-$600-800, including hotel, gas, and entry
Tires, 2 sets per year if you run 8-10 weekends, yearly cost ~$1000

Based on my friend's experiences, with 4 different builds, Spec Miata costs about the same: less engine/trans/suspension expense, but initial cost of car is higher.


Always cheaper to buy someone else race car... we sold that Rabbit for $2500.

[smg914]

You were given some great advice. I agree with both Racer Chris and Vegas Racer. Probably the best bang for the buck would be the Miata. From what I understand, you can get a bran new engine in a box for a couple of thousand dollars. And you would be involved in some serious wheel to wheel racing.

Having said all that, for me I didn't want to race anything but a 914. 914's were and still are my passion. I did 17 years of PCA Driver's Ed in a 914 and when PCA Club Racing came along around 1995 it was the perfect venue for me. I bought a SCCA ITB 914 1.8 and had a great time. A few years later I sold it and bought a 914-6 race car which bumped me up two clases. It was a tremendous experience and I have no regrets.

I was spending about $12,000 a year. But I wasn't doing anything close to as many races you plan on doing. Some of the expenses you may not be thinking of are: motels, food, gas for the tow vehicle, gas for the race car, entry fees, tires and brake pads. Also don't foget some of the up front costs even before you get the car on the track. ie; racing suite, new helmet at least every 5 years. If you do 10 races a year you'll need a new helmet sooner than later. You will have to purchase a transponder, nomex golves, nomex socks and nomex boots. I believe your 5 point harness can't be older than 5 years.

To have fun you don't need to be a front runner. You just need a bunch of cars/drivers's that you are competitive with and can go wheel to wheel with them. So no matter where you are, front middle or back as long as you have 4 to 10 cars around you, you will have a blast. To be a front runner in a 914 takes a lot of money and or some tremendous tallent. Just and FYI, if you decide to race a 914 you will have to install a front oil cooler. It's amazing how how the engine gets when you run the piss out of them in a 40 minute sprint race not to mention an enduro.

Don't get discouraged. I highly recommend you do it. You will never regret it. In fact, if you don't do it, you will eventually regret it. The people you meet the experiences you will have will last a lifetime. And my wife enjoyed it too. She went to every race with me. Traveling to the different tracks in the Southeast was great fun. But remember with gas at $2.50 a gallon and with my tow vehicle getting about 9 miles to the gallon........well it's only money!!!!!!!!!!

[groot]

I'm nearly ready now for Grattan next weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you believe it? Engine's in and running. I broke in the cam (a Jake special) this past weekend. One more valve adjustment and it's ready.

I'm going to go through the car very carefully this weekend and pack it up. I'm running a test session on Wed at GMan and then the practice day at Grattan in hopes of making this one of my best racing weekends yet. I need the points.

[VegasRacer]

QUOTE (groot @ Aug 3 2005, 06:44 AM)

Always cheaper to buy someone else race car

That is worth repeating in big bold letters.

Always cheaper to buy someone else race car