so, i want to race. i've wanted to race forever, and i've seen this becoming more possibly the last year or two. i'm tentatively planning to get my scca license next march, but may wait til 2007.

so i've been throwing around ideas and doing a lot of research into what class i might race in, what cars i might rent or buy, and of course, the possibility of racing the 914. it doesn't seem like a cost-effective or logical platform, but hey, i've already got one and it's fairly well sorted.

I can race the 914 w/ my engine (very fast 2056) as is and no weight requirements in the catch-all class of ITE. it's basically an anything-goes DOT-race-tire class. I'd run mid-pack or slower (probably slower), so I don't know how much fun that'd be. ITE times at thunderhill range from 2:00 to 2:20. we'll see what I run this saturday, but I'm guessing that with some experience, the car and I are capable of running 2:15's... maybe less, but I ain't going to be running 2:00s without serious power AND tire width AND some real experience.

now, with a stock 2.0 engine and some ballast, I'd be in ITB, where I'd have a chance. front runners in ITB are running 2:16s at thunderhill. an ITB car is almost exactly a BP car with ballast. BP cars can run 2:17 to 2:25 at thunderhill. so with some experience, I'd have a chance to be competitve.

stock 1.7 engine and very little ballast is ITC (2:20s and up). this is a class it'd do well in, but a stock 1.7 would break my heart after being used to my engine...


SO, the latest idea is to turn the car into a BP (PCA class)/ITB car. I could run PCA AX and TTs, as well as race SCCA (never mind the proposed points system). seems like it might be a decent compromise, in terms of having a class/classes where I can judge my improvement and progress.

If I sold my engine (just broken in) for a fair price I could pick up a decent used 2.0, do a budget top-end on it, and hopefully have a little money to spare for safety equipment. I fucking love that engine though. it really *makes* the car....

now, I'd run my current engine in NASA GTS-1 (http://www.gtschallenge.com/Rules/2005rules.htm ) if it was in Norcal, but it's only in SoCal right now... that seems like a cool group.


above are the only ways I can really envision racing the 914. vintage racing isn't active enough for my plans (I'd like to do a full 10-11 race season).

if I sell the 914, the doors are wide open. spec rx7 (scca) and pro7 (nasa) are basically the same class in norcal, so I could run both series and get all the damn seat time I wanted. miatas are also a possibility, but cost about 2x as an rx7 to get into. running costs appear similar, though -- and slightly less than a 914, which will never be as reliable. frankly, i think a spec series would be a better place for me to learn racing.

I definitely do not have the space nor can I probably afford to keep the 914 and buy another race car. it'd break my heart to get rid of the 914 i've built, and i'd sure as hell miss being as active a part of this awesome community, but i want to race that bad.

so if anyone wants to make this decision easy for me and buy a very well-prepped AX/TT/Street car for, say $6750, let me know.

maybe i'll just buy a cheap kart for 06...

all input welcome

Like I said in our off-board conversations,
Keep what you've got for now.
Get the safety equipment you need and run all the DE's/TT's and track days you can the rest of this year and next.

Get your SCCA license if you want. If you still want to race wheel-to-wheel, you will have 10-15 events behind you in a car you know.

P.S. get a SIX.

KT

Is the 914 reliable enough for track day events? If so use it to get your drivers license. One big reason people don't get their competition license is, failure to finish the school. Get the license and then figure out where you want to run.

If you are looking for track time and cheap racing, then look for the NASA Honda Challenge. Tons of competition and plenty of racing to do.


If you decide to run a Spec Miata, we'll burn you at the stake.

exspensive hobby. wish i had your kind of money. . you'll need the 914 to go to portland.

k

Nathan,
Your times at TH will probably be slower than you think until you get some seat time on the big tracks.
The FM records are in the 2:12 - 2:15 range for John Seidels car and a very well preparred 2.0 6. The BP records are in the same range
All cars were very very well preparred with drivers with years and years of experience.
Th is a challenging track.
If you are doing the HSDS the focus will be on identifying turns and the correct line with turn ins and braking points. Timing is frowned upon for HSDS drivers. It just depends on who you instructors are. Some are willing to let HSDS participants run 80%+ others don't.
I will be there for the weekend doing my track communications and control For GGR.

Not to piss on your parade..
I'm gonna sound really old here, and I am. BTDT. A/X to GP bikes to Cal Club to CanAm. I quit during my first practice with the fast cars. Those guys are GOOD!
Racing as an amateur sucks if you're trying to win. You won't have the resources to compete without sponsors, and the sponsors are looking for guys a lot faster than you. If you can run with the privateers and have fun, great. If not, even in 1970 it cost over $10k per race (Lotus 19). It's at least 5 times that amount now. Can you afford that?
If not, go trade paint with spec racers and have some fun. Mazda is very active, POC has 944 spec and Boxster spec is coming. $25K plus $10K per season. Still an expensive hobby, but doable.

I've heard a few times that the Spec Miata and RX-7s can be "nerve racking" due to quite a few of the racers consider cars in those spec classes "disposible", meaning they don't give a $h!t about thier car or your's....so it could actually end up costing more money.......

thanks for the input, guys. i ain't looking to race with the big boys. i think IT or Pro7 or wreck-miata should be doable for $8k/year in expendables running midpack. more if there is, errrr, body work involved, as mike suggested.

dan, i'll see you out there at the hsds. i didn't mean to sound cavalier at all, looking foward to an educational, safe experience.

kevin, i'm selling my body. business is good.

howard, you're fucking old, man. really. old.

QUOTE (Brett W @ Aug 2 2005, 09:36 PM)

Is the 914 reliable enough for track day events?  If so use it to get your drivers license.  One big reason people don't get their competition license is, failure to finish the school.  Get the license and then figure out where you want to run.

definitely. engine and suspension are well sorted, dialed in, and reliable. did superb at streets of willow. consistent top-5 AX car. needs some more precautionary stuff (cooler, accusump) and an IT cage. that's it.

Race the 914 in ITB! You will have a lot of fun and you control the budget by how many races you do. As long as you don't crash or get hit a lot it doesn't have to be terribly expensive. After you have some real experience you can start spending more money on parts that enhance the car's performance. Believe me, the sky's the limit with any car even the spec ones but 6-10K per year can go pretty far if you do most of the work yourself.
The rich guys buy lots of spares and test them to see which ones are marginally better, then sell off the lesser parts to the lower budget racers.
As long as you're not running DFL there will be someone to race. BTW, doing well at wheel to wheel competition is harder than you think! Unless you're a natural it takes years to be very good.
If winning is what's most important to you then just buy someone's winning car and get some top notch instruction.
In any case hanging out with the club you intend to race with is a good idea. Start NOW!

Here is the way I did it, and what I learned.

I had a nice stock 914 and after a few DE events I decided I wanted to go racing. I bought a Spec RX-7. I had a lot of fun and learned how to drive much better in the 5 years I raced with the SCCA. I had several podium finishes and was sitting in 4th place division wide when I sold the car.

I sold it because I decided I wanted to race a 'Porsche'. I could have bought a truck load of Mazda's for what I dumped into my 914 race car. Even so, I was never able to be competitive in POC or PCA. Those guys have way to much money. I then turned to vintage racing. I did OK but I missed the close competition I had in the Spec class. I sold the 914 race car and got Elvira, a /6 that I can both drive on the street and run the track (but no wheel to wheel action).

My advice for the most bang for the buck - get into a Spec class. I spent $10 - $15 K per year to race the Mazda. It will cost you several times that to track a 914 if you want to be mid pack. Add a 0 if you want to be in the front.

QUOTE (Howard @ Aug 3 2005, 01:54 AM)

You won't have the resources to compete without sponsors...

Amen to that.

here's a snippet from a post over on the 356 List the other day:

QUOTE

BTW, I was campaigning my 54 coupe in Southern California in early 1960's. I was in the Sunbeam dealership (Sunbeam 1600 Alpines) also ran in D Class), when a fellow walked in with a titanium crank and valves. The parts manager looked at them, they exchanged a few words and the parts manager opened a book and pencilled in a number. He scratched the same number onto the crank and said: "OK, now it's a stock part" It was costing me about $3500 a year to keep the coupe in clutches, trans, modifications and transportation and with that I quit and let the dentists race.

QUOTE (VegasRacer @ Aug 3 2005, 07:44 AM)

I spent $10 - $15 K per year to race the Mazda. It will cost you several times that to track a 914 if you want to be mid pack. Add a 0 if you want to be in the front.

I must be doing something wrong then.

This is the first year I spent more than $10K, and the first year I had any major sponsors outside my own one man company.
I do have one big advantage though, any fabrication required costs me $0 labor.
You have to consider your resources; you need at least two of these four: time, talent, money, more money.

I agree with Chris on this one. $10-$15k to run a spec car.... that's a lot of money. But, it may be how each person is counting.....

My advice.... figure out what kind of racer you are. Are you a builder/racer or just a racer... no shame intended. My SM friends do very little work on their cars and spend their time learning to drive faster and tweaking, where I'm pulling my engine out after most races. Their weekends are spent discussing what tire pressures to run and cornering lines. My weekends are filled with tuning carbuerators and fixing my clutch release mechanism. But, having bitched about that, I can say there's nobody with a bigger smile on their face than I when I'm racing.

Once you figure out which you are that will dictate which car you run. No matter what, if you run a 914, you will be working on it a lot (or paying someone else, too). It's really a matter of how time you want to dedicate to working on the car. I've really tried to make my car very simple, but I'm still doing bigger projects every weekend than the SM guys.

Over the course of a full season my total racing related expenses averaged almost a thousand per race weekend. SCCA membership, race license, entry fees, gas, tires, travel expenses, hotel, food for the weekend, awards banquet, and the list goes on. Add in parts, repairs, body work, tools, supplies, equipment, mods and upgrades, etc., etc.

Sure, some weekends were not much more than $300 - $400.
T-bone a spinner and you get more than a DNF.

QUOTE (groot @ Aug 3 2005, 09:12 AM)

No matter what, if you run a 914, you will be working on it a lot (or paying someone else, too).

That's exactly what it comes down to.

Hey Kevin, are you going to be ready for Grattan next weekend?

Some costs for reference....

My personal experience:
Cost to build ITB Rabbit GTI-$11k (to the limit of the rules, but not paying others to do the work)
Cost to race ITB car per weekend-$600-800, including hotel, gas, and entry
Tires, 2 sets per year if you run 8-10 weekends, yearly cost ~$1000

Based on my friend's experiences, with 4 different builds, Spec Miata costs about the same: less engine/trans/suspension expense, but initial cost of car is higher.


Always cheaper to buy someone else race car... we sold that Rabbit for $2500.

You were given some great advice. I agree with both Racer Chris and Vegas Racer. Probably the best bang for the buck would be the Miata. From what I understand, you can get a bran new engine in a box for a couple of thousand dollars. And you would be involved in some serious wheel to wheel racing.

Having said all that, for me I didn't want to race anything but a 914. 914's were and still are my passion. I did 17 years of PCA Driver's Ed in a 914 and when PCA Club Racing came along around 1995 it was the perfect venue for me. I bought a SCCA ITB 914 1.8 and had a great time. A few years later I sold it and bought a 914-6 race car which bumped me up two clases. It was a tremendous experience and I have no regrets.

I was spending about $12,000 a year. But I wasn't doing anything close to as many races you plan on doing. Some of the expenses you may not be thinking of are: motels, food, gas for the tow vehicle, gas for the race car, entry fees, tires and brake pads. Also don't foget some of the up front costs even before you get the car on the track. ie; racing suite, new helmet at least every 5 years. If you do 10 races a year you'll need a new helmet sooner than later. You will have to purchase a transponder, nomex golves, nomex socks and nomex boots. I believe your 5 point harness can't be older than 5 years.

To have fun you don't need to be a front runner. You just need a bunch of cars/drivers's that you are competitive with and can go wheel to wheel with them. So no matter where you are, front middle or back as long as you have 4 to 10 cars around you, you will have a blast. To be a front runner in a 914 takes a lot of money and or some tremendous tallent. Just and FYI, if you decide to race a 914 you will have to install a front oil cooler. It's amazing how how the engine gets when you run the piss out of them in a 40 minute sprint race not to mention an enduro.

Don't get discouraged. I highly recommend you do it. You will never regret it. In fact, if you don't do it, you will eventually regret it. The people you meet the experiences you will have will last a lifetime. And my wife enjoyed it too. She went to every race with me. Traveling to the different tracks in the Southeast was great fun. But remember with gas at $2.50 a gallon and with my tow vehicle getting about 9 miles to the gallon........well it's only money!!!!!!!!!!

I'm nearly ready now for Grattan next weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you believe it? Engine's in and running. I broke in the cam (a Jake special) this past weekend. One more valve adjustment and it's ready.

I'm going to go through the car very carefully this weekend and pack it up. I'm running a test session on Wed at GMan and then the practice day at Grattan in hopes of making this one of my best racing weekends yet. I need the points.

QUOTE (groot @ Aug 3 2005, 06:44 AM)

Always cheaper to buy someone else race car

That is worth repeating in big bold letters.

Always cheaper to buy someone else race car

QUOTE (VegasRacer @ Aug 3 2005, 05:50 AM)

QUOTE (groot @ Aug 3 2005, 06:44 AM) Always cheaper to buy someone else race car That is worth repeating in big bold letters. Always cheaper to buy someone else race car

That is some serious words of wisdom!!!!!!!!!

This quote too

QUOTE

I highly recommend you do it. You will never regret it. In fact, if you don't do it, you will eventually regret it.

QUOTE (groot @ Aug 3 2005, 05:44 AM)

Cost to build ITB Rabbit GTI-$11k Expenses to race ITB car per weekend-$600-800 Tires, 2 sets per year if you run 8-10 weekends, yearly cost ~$1000 Being chased around and around the track by old, thrashed, MR2 Spyders and finally spinning out in the weeds---- --------PRICELESS!!!--------

J

Just Do It. I also agree about finding the limitations of your ability to do your own work. I realized early I was a driver first and foremost. I then concentrated on racing in Skip Barbers various series which are arrive and drive. I been fortunate to have raced against an Andretti, Unser, Montoya, Herta, Petty, Nadeau, etc and I can't trade those memories. After many years (well I still do a race weekend or 2 with Skip) I decided I wanted something else left after a weekend besides memories. Also having fun is more a priority now than ruthless pursuits of podiums. So now I have a 914-6 capable of A/Xing, DEs and vintage racing. I'm glad the passion of driving fast has never left me and I hope it never does.

T.C.

Im thinking of going the go-kart way,turn 8 on the big track at willow makes my ass try and grab the seat but i drove a 125 shifter and it felt faster...much faster!

You've been given plenty of good advice. My experience with my 914-6 is similar to Johns'. Even though my car is highly modified, it's never going to be competitive with the 911's in my class.
Now here is a perspective that no one has touched on, and I will probably get flamed by some of the 914 racers for this. One of my team mates races a 914-4. Over the last four years I've watched him and two other 914-4 guys go through numerous engine rebuilds. Usually caused by the heads. In fact his engine would come out of his car between nearly every event. I just don't think a four cylinder is up to the rigors of wheel to wheel racing. A 944 spec appears to be just as fast and much cheaper to keep together. Sorry for the blasphemy.

wow...I never realized how expensive the Spec or lower level club racing could be...ouch

I can barely justify spending money on my street 914 to get it to around the block yet alone around a race track

Good luck with whatever route you take...

Regarding buying someone elses race car.
CAVEAT EMPTOR!
You will also be buying their mistakes. Don't buy any race car without having an experienced racer give it a thorough inspection.
A cheaper car can easily become nothing but headaches.

Been around racing all my life, and ran a few assorted cars when the occasion arose. Cars are expensive any way you cut it IF you want to be reasonably competitive. That's big IF, as if you are content to run somewhere other than in front, well that's your deal. Many are quite ok with that, and the costs can be reasonable. Outside of that, the costs quickly escalate to the unreasonable, as you soon find yourself running against the "cost is no object" crowd. Everything SCCA seems overpriced, to me. A new D/SR rolling chassis for $40K!! Forget it!

At the last NASA event I attended at Willow Springs, I was talking with a bunch of stockcar guys with regard to a pro roadrace class they run (don't recall the designation). Basically, these guys are buying up the old ASA cars, and run a spec ZZ4 crate motor and spec tires. The motors are cheap and reliable....many don't even rebuild them; they sell them off and buy a new crate motor. Evidently, as a group buy, they get these motors for around $3K. The series pays real money! This reminds me very much of a series they ran at Willow several years ago called the Toyota Sportsman Stockcar Challenge (can you believe Toyota sponsored a stockcar class!!). I drove one of these, and they were plenty fast; 355 cu. in. iron head 2 bbl 14:1 motor made 465HP. That series also paid real money. Stockcar parts are cheap by comparison.....lots of competition amongs the vendors keeps the prices low. there's alos tons of used race parts out there.

I did run roadrace shifter karts for better than 25 years. What this allowed me to do, was to run up front with a chance to win every time I ran..........without mortgaging my home, angry wife, etc. I could run the best and the latest equipment; though granted I did my own motor work and development. Point being, running for the potential of winning was far more satisfying to me, than running un-competitively somewhere in the lower half of the field. FWIW.

Andy

QUOTE (Racer Chris @ Aug 3 2005, 11:30 AM)

You will also be buying their mistakes. Don't buy any race car without having an experienced racer give it a thorough inspection.

and don't forget - a current logbook and record of good finishing positions is no guarantee of a first-rate car. there are some very talented drivers who have learned to go fast driving "unusual" cars.

rarely does a guy sell a championship car unless he already has a faster car lined up. and there is technique...

i had the opportunity to drive a friend's SOLO-II car one weekend -- my ur-GTI was down with yet another broken front wheel bearing so he let me run his (BSP?) Scirocco for a couple of runs temporarily re-classified as E-Prepared so i could get event and participation points for the year championship. the owner was v-e-r-y fast in that car - usually at least as fast or better than i was on race tires (and tired engine...). the car was CRAP! let's just say we had radically different ideas of preparation. the brakes were good - on the floor. the clutch grabbed at the top. there was about 6" play in the shifter and a half a turn in the steering. he knew it, and could drive it - somehow - and had many class wins to show for it. i found it undriveable...

awesome input guys. thanks so much.

i know the 914 pretty well now, and have a decent sized garage, and minus tire mounting and machine work, i can do 98% of the work myself, including chassis setup and alignment and such... most of the time, i even enjoy working on it. if i bang it up, parts cars and such are plentiful in the bay area. moreover, i have 914club. the type4 engine seems the week spot in the equation, but i think the motor i just built would last a season. i have a good machine shop for cyl heads.

learning to build a rotary... well, it can't be that hard.

sprint karts are also an option for me, and if i quit developing the 914, i could probably afford to have both.

My two centimes on this:

I raced bikes for a few years dog's years ago, and hung around a lot of SCCA car teams. In your first season or two, what car you have is almost entirely irrelevant. Run whatever you have and like, and simply learn. Worrying about competitiveness in the first season is, IMHO, misplaced, because unless you're really gifted, you won't be. Spend a couple of seasons learning several things: how much work it takes to run ANY racing effort, how much money it takes to run even a minimal budget effort, and racecraft. After a couple of seasons, you'll know whether you want to continue to spend the time and money to keep racing (an AMAZING percentage of people stop after only one or two seasons when they become overwhelmed by the necessary commitment), and if you decide you want to keep going, you'll have a much better idea of what class fits your budget and your desires.

Plenty of people get in and realize they don't have to win to enjoy themselves, and spend their time putting together a safe car that's easy to live with, but never push themselves or their equipment hard enough to win. You see a lot of these people at the back of Formula Ford grids, unable to spend enough to be competitive, but having a ball just driving a "real" racing car. Others decide they must win or be capable of winning to play, so they have to design their programs (and their lives) around that.

So, run the 914, as it's something you know and understand. You won't be compounding all of the other learning with having to learn a new car, too. Don't spend a lot of money or effort on car prep other than keeping it safe and drivable. After a few events, you'll have a much better idea of what direction you want to go in. Until you run those events, though, you really don't have enough data on which to base a rational decision. No one else can really tell you what you're going to want.

btw, on spec series: it's been my experience that running a *competitive* spec program is MORE expensive than running a competitive program in classes that allow a lot more latitude. You must run stock parts (not made for racing, so they often need more frequent replacement), or you must only run "approved" parts (from a small set of suppliers, with a small market, so prices are high). I've seen cases in the SCCA's own publications where someone is penalized (sometimes severely, like a DQ) for things like running an oil filter that was bought at the corner FLAPS rather than from an approved supplier (Spec Racer had this problem for quite some time). There's also a lot more squabbling in Spec and Stock classes over rules and nitpicking. Politics gets way too involved.

Alot of very good advice so far...

My opinion would be to keep the 914 as a street car, and buy a Spec Miata. The SM classes are the largest, and most competitive in many parts of the country. Aslo, they're cheap to get into, and cheap to repair and/or replace. Especially compared to a 914. Karts are another option, and they are an absolute blast and a half to drive. But they can be pretty punishing on the body. The most compliant component of the whole chassis is your spine...

And replacing fenders on a SM car is going to be loads cheaper than on a 914, much less replacing the whole body if someone stuffs you into a tire wall. IT and Spec classes tend to swap paint a little more often because their cars are generally considered "disposable".

Buying someone else's race car is a double edged sword as someone else mentioned. You get all the work that they've done, but you get all their mistakes too. For cars like the Spec Miata, there are a host of builders that will sell a fully built SM car for under $10k.

Two old addages that I think are very appropriate...

"If you can't afford a good Ferrarri, you sure can't afford a bad one."

-and-

"Don't take your car to the track unless you're prepared to walk away from it...".

Oh, and one more for good measure...

"No amount of money can turn a pig into a racehorse.... But you can make one hellofa fast pig!. "

-Josh2

I'll just throw in my $0.02.

From my short lived wheel to wheel experience (I stick to DE events with PCA, BMWCCA, and AUDI Clubs), the best advice I can give you is to:

Read the rule book!!!


then read it again BEFORE spending any money.

Try racing with the PCA to try it out with your existing car to make sure that wheel to wheel racing is really something you want to do. (I do not)

If I did want to do the racing thing, I would probably go spec racing as the cars are much more closely matched.

Again it's just my opinion.

1. Have you ever personally driven a car on a racetrack?

2. If not, contact you area car clubs. Start with PCA in your region, then BMW, then Audi's Quattro club, or even Corvette, or Mustang club.

3. Find out if they run Drivers Education events. And if they are conducted like PCA's DE events.

4. Sign up for a DE event (preferably with a PCA group), and do it. Depending on the region, you may or may not even have to join the PCA. In some regions that "need" more drivers, like Kansas City, I do not think membership is required. You will normally get something like a 2 day event, with INSTRUCTION, and probably 4 driving sessions each day (8 total) and they are 20 to 25 minutes long. Enough track time to satisfy, and way more hours of practice that you will get in 10 or 20 autocrosses! Cheapest bang you can get for the buck.

5. Do one or two DE events, and then you will know a lot more about yourself, and about your car. And then you can make an intelligent decision.

6. I started doing DE events in 1986 and have done 5 or 6 or 7 events each year since then, so lots of track hours. We get lots of hours of driving at speeds that are even higher than you can run in a "race", develop your own skill level, time yourself and run against the "clock", and get in 4 hours of high speed driving in a weekend. (burn a lot of gas, melt a lot of tires, and use a lot of pads).

7. I like the DE events better than Club Racing (in PCA) for a lot of reasons.
a. I get a lot of track time, maybe 4 hours on on track time in a weekend, at speeds very often faster than you can drive in a race.
b. I can instruct with various groups, and share knowledge.
c. I can learn and further develop my skills.
d. In the DE groups, we generally do not have "insane mega buck cars" with "egomaniac drivers" who will not believe that a 914 can run with them, and who will put their own life, and their car, and your life and your car "on the line" to prove it. If we get someone like that we send them home. The SCCA does not do that, you learn to live with it.

8. After you have done some DE work, if you want to be a race car driver, get a Go Cart, and move up through their classes. Then in a few years, if you want to, move up to spec racing or ? All of the best sports race car drivers started there. Michael did it. Kimi did it. Danica did it.
The only difference is that , they started when they were 10 years old. There are literally enough groups in carts (from slow to fast cars) to keep some people involved for years, and all for SMALL $ compared to full size cars.

9. Make sure you enjoy it, and have fun! Get your wife or "significant other" involved. Get you kids involved. You can have a life time of enjoyment with cars and race tracks. My son and I have been doing this together for 18 or 19 YEARS!!! Would be even better if my wife was involved, and "hooked" on the sport, because she would "help" budget money for it. Because it is costly. So you know, with fees, fuel, tires, motel bills, etc. (NO MONEY FOR THE CAR), I figure it costs $1000 per weekend to do a DE event. (that is 2 drivers). One driver will cost more than half of that.