Can Too Much Oil Damage Your Motor?, Mechanic Added Too Much Options

[930cabman]

I'm going to start a new religion based around oil mysteries . . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

What type to use?
What weight to use?
What brand of oil is best to use?
Check it at high tide or low tide?
Check at full moon, Harvest Moon, or Blood Moon?
What day of week to check it?
What is the optimum oil temperature?
What brand of filter is best?


Sheesh! Just fill to the marks the OEM put on the dipstick and use the standard filter. Life doesn't need to be so hard.

Funny how we can overthink anything? Goes with the OCD thing

[StarBear]

Concur with Big Len’s comments. 20W50 high-phos oil and a filter. Change when engine is warm and pass through 1/2 quart to purge old oil. After change and filter, run a minute or two, recheck level and top off.
Cheap, easy and best protection around for our precious air-cooled darlings.

[Superhawk996]

Still interested to hear why @Superhawk996 calls it the "3,000 mile myth." I'm pretty sure there are some nuggets of wisdom he has to share.

Thanks for the vote of confidence! But I doubt I'll change any minds. Oil is a religion.

The simple fact is that I call the need for 3,000 mile oil changes a myth because it is a myth. But you shouldn't believe me . . . I'm just a dope on the internet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif) Sure I have an engineering degree and have done automotive engineering for 27 years but like I said, oil is a religion.

Let's start here:

Google all the major OEM's and see if you can find anyone recommending oil changes every 3,000 miles unless there is severe service. As @bbrock stated, even back in the day, the recommendation was 5,000. Most OEM's are right around 7,000 - 10,000 miles for normal use with Dino oil (see graphic pulled for F150). You will note there is a recommendation for a 3,000 mile interval only if Max towing is the normal service, and/or if the vehicle operates in severe hot or cold environment.

Let's also ask who is recommending 3 months or 3,000 miles. Turns out that is largely the Quick Lube place, or your mechanic. They even put a nice little sticker on your windshield to remind you to come back. Think they might have a vested interest in selling oil changes?

Finally, you can do some independent research and you'll come to the conclusion that there is a general consensus that changing oil every 3,000 miles is unnecessary.

So why did I recommend it in the prior post?

To (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif)

To go with the flow knowing that this is "The Gospel of Oil" according to Quaker State.

Like the Hippocratic Oath - I believe in "do no harm" - a 3,000 mile oil change isn't going to hurt the car. I didn't want to offer advice that could hurt anyone's 914! The environment . . . that's another question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

Air cooled engines run HOT! This is just a fact. Air cooled engines are really as much oil cooled as they are air cooled. Oil is washing over heads that are running at 350F. In the process, oil absorbs lots of that heat. It is not unexpected for air cooled engines to run oil temps in the range of 240F - 280F. That is hard on conventional Dino oil. So 3,000 mile change intervals with Dino oil are conservative . . . but safe.

Finally, the number one problem with conventional Dino oil is oxidation. Oxidation is caused by lots of things, #1 among them being heat. Other things like exposure to water (condensation) and combustion blow by are on that list. Got a carb running rich and washing down cylinder walls? - another oil oxidation source.

Exhibit 1
2021 F150 Maintenance Schedule.


I'll address the question about synthetics separately.

[930cabman]

FWIW:
I have been changing my oil (dino) every 3k miles on all my vehicles for 1/2 century and never had an engine failure attributed to an oil issue. I also use the same oil, 20W 50 Castrol in my air cooled stuff, 5W 20 in my water cooled stuff.

[Superhawk996]

i would have thought synthetic oils are better at not breaking down in use and can go further between changes. esp in colder winter months.

I've read that while synthetics don't break down as fast as conventional, they still get dirty so still should be changed at the same interval. I've always run synthetic in my cars and will do the same in the 914 after one more cycle with VR1.

By now there is no dispute. Synthetics are superior to Dino oil.

Synthetics are superior in the following way:

Resistance to oxidation -- this is the most compelling reason to use them.

Synthetics have a more consistent Viscosity Index. This means they don't change viscosity as much as a function of temperature. DO NOT confuse this with viscosity itself (i.e. 5w20, 30W, etc.) This is a measure of viscosity stability as a function of temperature.



Again, don't believe me. In 2017 AAA did a pretty decent 3rd party assessment of the synthetic vs. conventional oil debate.

Results:



Complete study:
https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads...AL-EXTERNAL.pdf

I'll leave it up to debate as to whether the cost delta is "worth it".

Since synthetics are much more stable than Dino oil. Extended oil changes are possible with synthetics. How good of an idea this is depends on a lot of things like condition of the engine, cost to replace the engine, type of service (racing vs. Sunday driver), etc. It should go without saying that if you go the synthetic route, choose one with a good Zinc additive package to take care of our cams and lifters.

The main problem we face with air cooled T4 engines is that they are pretty archaic, they run hot, they suffer from high(er) combustion blow by due to the cylinder design as compared to a water pumper. So yes. . . . you'll see more carbon in your oil.

However, dark oil doesn't indicate "bad" oil with Synthetics. Again, this is some of our own superstition working against us based on what we think we know about Dino oil. Carbon blow by and build up in your oil isn't the main source of wear. What causes wear is metal to metal contact caused by oil viscosity degradation due to elevated temperatures, decreased lubricity, etc., due to things like oxidation and shear of the molecules. As previously demonstrated, Synthetics are superior at resisting these types of degradation.

So, I'll leave it to each to decide how far they wish to push the service interval if using synthetics but I'd suggest that 15,000 miles is a pretty well defined upper limit based on what other OEM's have recommended for water pumpers but I have no hard data to back this for a T4 air cooled engine.

[Van B]

@Superhawk996

I think you could also talk more about what the significance of oxidation is in the motor i.e. a transition from at neutral pH to a more acidic compound that acts as an electrolytic compound.

One of my personal techniques is to never let an engine sit with old oil for prolonged periods.

[Superhawk996]

@Superhawk996

I think you could also talk more about what the significance of oxidation is in the motor i.e. a transition from at neutral pH to a more acidic compound that acts as an electrolytic compound.

One of my personal techniques is to never let an engine sit with old oil for prolonged periods.

Valid point. I think the recommendation even with synthetics is to change at least once a year for that reason. I've also seen it lobbied to change once every six months to coincide with tire rotation . . . ya all are doing that too right?

I'm not a Tribologist . . . I only play one on this forum (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[Jamie]

OK now, if considering a switch from dino to synthetics, what specific brands of oil have all the additive goodies desirable for our hot running engines? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[gandalf_025]

Back, years ago…at a shop just outside Boston..
I saw at least 4, 930’s come in on flatbeds because
the owners tried to cheap out and went to a quick oil change place..
Apparently the oil change places weren’t aware there were
3 oil drain plugs on 930’s..
They pulled the sump drain and then filled the car with like 13 quarts of oil..
Generally smoked a lot and made a big mess..

[Van B]

@Superhawk996

I think you could also talk more about what the significance of oxidation is in the motor i.e. a transition from at neutral pH to a more acidic compound that acts as an electrolytic compound.

One of my personal techniques is to never let an engine sit with old oil for prolonged periods.

Valid point. I think the recommendation even with synthetics is to change at least once a year for that reason. I've also seen it lobbied to change once every six months to coincide with tire rotation . . . ya all are doing that too right?

I'm not a Tribologist . . . I only play one on this forum (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

I imagine it's all OBE at this point for manufacturers given the fervent hype around electrics.

[emerygt350]

OK now, if considering a switch from dino to synthetics, what specific brands of oil have all the additive goodies desirable for our hot running engines? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Mobil 1 European has some of the highest zinc levels for aynths.

[john ee quest]

Ran it for about 1 hr prior to draining excess oil. The motor is a "73 1.7. Thanks.

Regarding your question "can too much oil damage your motor"? the answer is probably yes & probably not. if only a small amount i.e. a couple of ounces extra r added, probably not. The opposite can be true if too much is added (depends on the engine of course) but anything close to a quart or more can cause harm. this is why: the excess oil can contact the spinning crankshaft (the level is too high) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) & be whipped into a kind of froth that is not able to be properly squeezed (pressurized) & sent through the engine.

[vitamin914]

I realize we are drifting off the too much oil question (a bit extra not likely, a lot more yes), but...

What is the tribol knowledge (yes, pun) on VR1 Dino vs VR1 Synthetic?


I have been told by the high priests of the oil religion that our 914s were made for Dino and should always have Dino oil... Never use anything other than VR1 Dino!
I think this comes from "everyday" synthetics that reduce the zinc and phosphorus for catalytic converters. I agree that these typical synthetics should not be used in tappet engines without an additive ZDDP additive..

The VR1 Full Synthetic should give our air cooled engines the best of both worlds.

Looking at the spec sheets they have identical Zn and P amounts, Dino or Synthetic.

I have both on the shelf and as soon as I run out my Dino stock I'm moving on to the high temperature benefits of synthetics (VR1). I don't want to "coke" my Dino oil by getting stuck in an unexpected traffic jam.

[r_towle]

For me, and my rare driving of any aircooled motor, I change the oil in the spring, and just before winter storage, or 3k miles, whichever comes first.
It’s not common fir me to put 3k per year on mine anymore.

Always will do it this way in my oil cooled cars with air assist.
They are all oil cooled.

Dino oil with zinc…I buy cases 10W-30 of what I can find with high levels of zinc.
My water cooled German cars all get mobile1 synth, European blend, euro weight…seems to be all I can walk into a store and get.

Rich

[Van B]

@vitamin914
In addition to the better temperature resistance demonstrated by synthetics, they also have less sulfur and don’t become as acidic as they are used.

IMO, the most important perspective to remember here is that all these attributes or advantages are found in the margins of use i.e. extreme use conditions or duration. The additive formulation is where oil becomes specific to particular use cases.
Hence nerdy engineers like @Superhawk996 gathering for a conference just to come up with certification codes to use as shorthand for these formulations and performance requirements.

[Jake Raby]

VR-1 was changed due to LSPI in modern engines a couple of years ago. Sodium and calcium levels were altered. The changes we've seen in oil due to this and additive shortages don't seem to end.

I prefer Semi- Synthetic GP-1 by Driven, since we started testing this oil 4 years ago I see the coolest temperatures and highest oil pressures of any oil. Basically its the proven Pennsylvania crude (ARG) mixed with the additive package found in DT50 Driven oil. This came about after DA Lubes bought the rights to Brad Penn from ARG.

Lots of times people just look at the anti- wear package in a given oil, and they don't consider how the detergent package comes into play within the formula.

All of this constantly changes, and what I prefer today I likely won't prefer later.. You have to stay aware with VOA and UOA to note changes, because no one is going to tell you.

[porschetub]

I realize we are drifting off the too much oil question (a bit extra not likely, a lot more yes), but...

What is the tribol knowledge (yes, pun) on VR1 Dino vs VR1 Synthetic?


I have been told by the high priests of the oil religion that our 914s were made for Dino and should always have Dino oil...

Its gone from oil overfilling subject to a oil brand type thing,us in the know run the oil that our motors should use.....lets get back on subject ,think we are safe to say Jake has already supplied a very educated reply to over filling and I think that is good enough.
Rant over (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .

[vitamin914]

[/quote]
Its gone from oil overfilling subject to a oil brand type thing,us in the know run the oil that our motors should use.....lets get back on subject ,think we are safe to say Jake has already supplied a very educated reply to over filling and I think that is good enough.
Rant over (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) .
[/quote]


Point taken. But, Eh, from one Colonist to another, it could have devolved into who's better at virtue signalling Jacinda or Justin... (Both of them are kinda oily). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Front yard mechanic]

I watched the indi time trials and saw rpm's reaching 12000 ! What kind of oil do they run in these f1 cars?