What oil type for a type IV?, Synthetic or Dino? Options

[Rand]

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[p914]

The Brad Penn partial synth looks great and has great reviews from Charles. I'm also looking at still using Mobil1 Synth 5w-30 and adding a product called ZddPlus as the Mobil 1 Synth runs cooler. Charles says he's testing the ZddPlus. Looking forward to hear about that from him. Just finishing off the break-in for my 2.0 to 2.7 rebuild using Havoline 20-50. Has SH and SJ API.

Also, I asked the Porsche Germany the question:
My questions are:
What oil weight and type does Porsche recommend for a 1975 Porsche 914 with a 2.0 liter engine?
Can Mobil 1 synthetic 5-30 be used or does it not have the proper ZDDP additive?

Porsche Classic from Germany responded:

Dear Sir,

thank you for your request.
We strongly advise against using synthetic oil as it would bear the risk of bad oil pressure and oil leakage.
Due to this fact we would recommend you to use "Castrol Classic 20 W - 50" for your vehicle.


Best regards

Florian Saeftel / Porsche Classic

[orthobiz]

October 2008 Pano has an article on this.

For the 914:
Rotella T 15W-40 CI-4
Swepco 306 15W-40 CI4
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50
All dinosaur

Mobil 1 15W-50 EP (Enhanced Performance)
or 0W-40
Helix Ultra 5W-40

I just put the VR-1 in my 1.8 1974 for the winter storage routine.

Paul

[Jake Raby]

Florian might be in Germany and might be associated with Porsche, but that dude is on crack. I'd like to see his data.

Just use Brad Penn and be done with it. It never ceases to amaze me how people make this so damn difficult, they'll go to the ends of the earth to avoid what actually works and is proven. I just don't get it.

[Jake Raby]

Florian might be in Germany and might be associated with Porsche, but that dude is on crack. I'd like to see his data.

Just use Brad Penn and be done with it. It never ceases to amaze me how people make this so damn difficult, they'll go to the ends of the earth to avoid what actually works and is proven. I just don't get it.

[Jake Raby]

Florian might be in Germany and might be associated with Porsche, but that dude is on crack. I'd like to see his data.

Just use Brad Penn and be done with it. It never ceases to amaze me how people make this so damn difficult, they'll go to the ends of the earth to avoid what actually works and is proven. I just don't get it.

[Joe Ricard]

Florian might be in Germany and might be associated with Porsche, but that dude is on crack. I'd like to see his data.

Just use Brad Penn and be done with it. It never ceases to amaze me how people make this so damn difficult, they'll go to the ends of the earth to avoid what actually works and is proven. I just don't get it.

Just in case you missed Jakes post the 3rd time here it is again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

[Gint]

What did he say? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[dbgriffith75]

Castrol, synthetic or straight, plain and simple.

Not to discredit Valvoline as its a good oil too; but I've run Castrol oil since I owned my first truck, and IMHO it's the best oil on the market. And maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention, but I've never once heard of any big issues with Castrol oil (as opposed to Pennzoil for example). For years I watched my dad use different oils in different things and he was never quite happy with them.

But in the nearly 11 years I've been driving and maintaining my own vehicles I've never had a single oil related issue using Castrol. And that's going from a '75 Chevy pick up to a '91 Corsica to an '87 Buick and now a '91 Ford pick up and a '73 Honda motorcycle.

It's a bit on the expensive side (per quart anyway) but IMO the extra money is worth it. So far, for me, Castrol has a proven track record and unless something big happens, I'll never use anything else.

[Jake Raby]

Are you aware that Castrol has changed their product 4 times in the past 3 years?

What you did in the past means little to nothing- its not the same product that it was.

I used it too, but after 40 months of data collection and a 3,450 mile cross country R&D trip where we tested 5 different oils I would not put it in my lawn mower today.

We hear the same old story about people who have used oils for years with no issues... Thats just like playing russian roulette- you haven't gotten the chambered round (yet)

This is a highly controversial topic, but few people have any data to support any claim. We do, and it cost tens of thousands of dollars to gather.

[Jake Raby]

Are you aware that Castrol has changed their product 4 times in the past 3 years?

What you did in the past means little to nothing- its not the same product that it was.

I used it too, but after 40 months of data collection and a 3,450 mile cross country R&D trip where we tested 5 different oils I would not put it in my lawn mower today.

We hear the same old story about people who have used oils for years with no issues... Thats just like playing russian roulette- you haven't gotten the chambered round (yet)

This is a highly controversial topic, but few people have any data to support any claim. We do, and it cost tens of thousands of dollars to gather.

[Jake Raby]

Are you aware that Castrol has changed their product 4 times in the past 3 years?

What you did in the past means little to nothing- its not the same product that it was.

I used it too, but after 40 months of data collection and a 3,450 mile cross country R&D trip where we tested 5 different oils I would not put it in my lawn mower today.

We hear the same old story about people who have used oils for years with no issues... Thats just like playing russian roulette- you haven't gotten the chambered round (yet)

This is a highly controversial topic, but few people have any data to support any claim. We do, and it cost tens of thousands of dollars to gather.

[Jake Raby]

Sorry for the triple posts.. My ISP has some weird issues today.

I'd like to add that of the engines mentioned by the proponent of Castrol I only see one engine listed that utilizes flat tappet cam and lifter design. This means EVERYTHING when selecting the best oils as these components demand excellent lubrication.

[dw914er]

Dino oil's for my 914

synthetic for my acura

[anderssj]

October 2008 Pano has an article on this.

For the 914:
Rotella T 15W-40 CI-4
Swepco 306 15W-40 CI4
Valvoline VR-1 20W-50
All dinosaur

I think the Pano info is a little dated. I used to use the Rotella 15w40, but it's just been reformulated to meet CJ-4 (not sure if there is the same or less ZDDP).

I'll be switching to Brad-Penn . . . .

[dbgriffith75]

Are you aware that Castrol has changed their product 4 times in the past 3 years?

What you did in the past means little to nothing- its not the same product that it was.

I used it too, but after 40 months of data collection and a 3,450 mile cross country R&D trip where we tested 5 different oils I would not put it in my lawn mower today.

We hear the same old story about people who have used oils for years with no issues... Thats just like playing russian roulette- you haven't gotten the chambered round (yet)

This is a highly controversial topic, but few people have any data to support any claim. We do, and it cost tens of thousands of dollars to gather.

No, I wasn't aware that Castrol has made that many changes; but it doesn't change the fact that I've never had any oil related issues using their products.

Which brings me to my next point- how can you say that what I've used in the past means nothing? You can't just write off 11 years of good use just because you have "tens of thousands of dollars" to do the research. So what if it's not the same product that it was? That doesn't change the fact that in the past three years, which you are telling me they've made a bunch of changes, that I STILL haven't had any oil related issues with it.

Excuse me if I don't have that kind of money at my disposal to throw away on testing different oils at any given time- like many people on this board I'm broke and just have to wait and see how it plays out from oil change to oil change.

So let's see the hard data you claim to have Raby- I'd like to know exactly how Castrol failed so miserably that you wouldn't even use it in your lawnmower now.

[ericread]

dbgriffith has a point. But maybe he is missing a some important points himself.

1. Jake has spent considerable time and money in scientifically testing and analyzing motor oils.
2. Navarro over at LN has worked with Jake in these tests.
3. Jake has no financial interest in pushing one oil versus another oil.
4. Without any financial gain whatsoever, Jake has chosen to share the results of his testing with us.

OK, granted; Jake's style of posting probably won't win him any elections. I doubt he really cares... But say what you will, but the integrity of Jake's knowledge and advice in the use of specific oils and additives has never been impeached.

You may wish to use a motor oil that Jake doesn't recommend. Great! Hell, you may decide that vegetable oil is the correct oil for your teener. Even better! And your 914 might run just fine on whatever oil you decide to use. However, do not forget that these engines were designed and intended to be run with an oil that was available in the 1970's. And Brad-Penn is about as close to those legacy oils that you can get.

With the difference in price between Brad-Penn and other oils relatively small, I just don't understand this emotional issues surrounding this question.

But then again, I just don't get emotional about motor oil. I just want to give my 914 every chance to live on.

Eric Read
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[dbgriffith75]

I get what you're saying Eric- and if I came off as sounding like Jake doesn't know what he's talking about, that's not what I meant at all. I didn't mean to make it sound like Jake's opinion and/or test data don't mean anything.

But IMO, you can't just dismiss an 11 year track record, whether you have data to support it or not. It doesn't matter that Castrol has made 4 product changes in the last 3 years because while that may be true, it's still true that for all that time I've never once had a single oil related issue with Castrol- and that's after using it in 5 very different vehicles with very different mileages. Besides, I'm sure they had reasons for making those changes- be them good or bad, they wouldn't just up and change their product without reason.

However, do not forget that these engines were designed and intended to be run with an oil that was available in the 1970's.

So was my 1975 Chevy Pick up. Granted, we're talking water cooled vs. air cooled, but it doesn't change the fact that 9 of those 11 years I've been using Castrol were spent in that truck. Sure, it was the high mileage formula, but Castrol never let me down; and even now it's still proven to me that it's a good oil.

Besides, all I'm asking for is to see the data that Jake has on these tests so I can see it for myself. I realize that he's got a good reputation with the members of 914 world but that doesn't mean I should do what he says just because he said it. IMO it's a foolish thing to do to just take someone's word for it, you know what I mean? I'm not saying he's partial to one oil or another or that he has anything to gain from pushing a certain type- I just think it's not asking too much to see the data he's got on Castrol vs. other oils.

And like I said, if I came off as sounding like his data or opinion didn't matter, that's not what I meant.

[ericread]

Well said db!

Thanks for the explanation. I agree that taking an individual's word at face value is less convincing than reviewing actual test data.

Here's a couple of links that I reviewed prior to switching to Brad-Penn:

http://forums.roadfly.com/forums/bmw/bmw-6.../8932859-1.html

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=1869
(take a look at Charles Navarro's post about half way down the link)

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74825

Just make sure you keep feeding that yummy zinc to your engine!

Eric

[dbgriffith75]

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Alright, yes, I am banging my head, but not for the reasons y'all might like to think I am. I still stand by Castrol; what I'm banging my head about is the fact that when I made my original post in this topic, I was thinking "The best oil period" not "The best oil for a type IV engine."

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I don't know why that's what I was thinking, since I do know how to read and the topic of this thread is "What oil type for a type IV?" But I somehow managed to get confused.

Still, I would like it noted that in this link you gave me Eric- http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html - which leads to Raby's test results.

Under the question "What kind of real-world field testing have you done?" It states in the first paragraph that all field testing was done by Jake Raby. This is stated in the second paragraph:

We tested oils as inexpensive as Castrol GTX to as expensive as Mobil 1 V-Twin and Amsoil's Harley V-Twin, including Brad Penn and a few others. The results of this testing has helped us in making some of the recommendations we now make and proof that these oils all work very well in aircooled engines.

Granted, it goes on to state in the third paragraph:

The Brad Penn was the clear winner in field testing, with the lowest wear metal counts between GTX, RP, and the Brad Penn. Comparing the best and worst , the Brad Penn used up ~6% of it's ZDDP versus ~23% for the GTX. The Brad Penn and RP came through in range for its viscosity grade whereas the GTX came in out of specification.

But then, if you keep reading, under the next question "What oil should I do if I have an older, higher mileage engine? Can I use a synthetic?" It states:

We do not recommend high-mileage oils or high-mileage/stop leak/stop smoke additives because of the questionable formulation of some of these lubricants. I however did find that as far as non-synthetic high-mileage formulations go, Castrol GTX High-Mileage 20w50 is a much better than the normal Castrol GTX 20w50 (higher viscosity, thermal shear stability, and lower noack volatility than the non-high-mileage).

So, given these results from your own tests Raby, I'd still like to know why you wouldn't use Castrol in a lawnmower when your own test results state that it works well in an air cooled engine... unless there was something I missed in all that reading (which is entirely possible since my eyes started crossing after about 1/4 of the way thru) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)