Adventure, Starter maybe / maybe not Options

[Stef914]

Hi all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

I left early this morning for my beautiful beach ride. Drove all the way from Pasadena thru downtown to Santa Monica and then all the way to Ventura county line.
Had a brief stop then headed back thru the Malibu Mnts. around Simi Valley and back to Pasadena with the 210...

Car drove flowlessly as usual ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

Had to stop to fill up some gas watching the $meter going almost like back home in Europe... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

When done I turned the key half way: pump sound check - all gauges check - but on the final key turn ooops car not starting... engine not even cranking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

Disconnected / reconnected the battery a couple of time since I obviously have no clue about anything and I though I might as well try this procedure a couple of times, clearly with no success (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

While sitting at the gas station and trying to think a solution I asked this nice gentlemen if he could help me push the car to see If I could get it started in first gear, just like I used to do with my Vespa back in my teens ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

Turns out that this gentlemen used to have a '72 914 from back in the days when you could get them for $500 ( yes $ 500 ... at least so he said )

Mine it's a late "73 2.0 FI all stock...

Now while he pushes under the hot heat sun of almost noon o'clock, when I release the clutch into 1st gear comfortably seating in the driver seat, the car starts just fine with no hesitations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif)

"Starter! Definitely the starter!!": he says. Or something else that I've now already forgot ... something that started with the letter "b" ... if I try to remember...

Anyway long story short I drive the car back into my garage, kill the engine, try to restart it just for the sake of it and/or to see if it was just a nightmare I had tonight or if it really happened and guess what ... the car didn't start hehehe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Now, you guys seems to know all about those cars, for sure more then I do ( I'm just a driver ) but does it sounds to you, based on my description that this could potentially be
a starter issue ??

I know it can be about 2.8 million different reasons but I'm just trying to narrow my search down (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

If you agree with the verdict would you be kind enough to tell me how much ( more or less ) such a repair might costs ? I'm in LA, so one way or the other I'm gonna get screwed over for sure but I tent to enjoy when I know HOW much I get screw over for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

I already check online and a starter seems to go from about $200 to $300 plus he labor , the tax, the tips, the tools, the love and all the nice things that happen @ the mechanic ...

This said I'd like to thank you all in advance and looking forward to roll down the hills sometime soon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Stefano

[bbrock]

Did the starter work again after the engine cooled down? If so, it could be the classic "hot start" problem. Happened to me just a few weeks ago with a brand new starter and new OEM ignition switch.

Check out Mark Henry's excellent thread on the best way to fix it. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;mode=threaded I did this fix and no more hot start issues (and this was after an old Bosch hot start relay had failed on me).

If your starter still isn't turning over even when the engine is cool, could be a few other things with the starter being only one of them.

[Stef914]

Did the starter work again after the engine cooled down? If so, it could be the classic "hot start" problem. Happened to me just a few weeks ago with a brand new starter and new OEM ignition switch.

Check out Mark Henry's excellent thread on the best way to fix it. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;mode=threaded I did this fix and no more hot start issues (and this was after an old Bosch hot start relay had failed on me).

If your starter still isn't turning over even when the engine is cool, could be a few other things with the starter being only one of them.

Thanks Brent!

i will try for sure later when the car as real cooled off and see if anything.
I did try to restart it right when I garaged without any success ...

I must say today it was particularly hot and drove quite a bit too so yeah engine oil temperature was on the "P" section of the gauge ...

[StarBear]

Did the starter work again after the engine cooled down? If so, it could be the classic "hot start" problem. Happened to me just a few weeks ago with a brand new starter and new OEM ignition switch.

Check out Mark Henry's excellent thread on the best way to fix it. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;mode=threaded I did this fix and no more hot start issues (and this was after an old Bosch hot start relay had failed on me).

If your starter still isn't turning over even when the engine is cool, could be a few other things with the starter being only one of them.

Have heard/read of Several cases of that happening the past few weeks.
Did the Mark Henry fix a few years ago; never a problem since. $30; 15 minutes.

[bdstone914]

@stef914

If you do need a starter i have two on the shelf rebuild by a local shop. $150 plus shipping.
It could also be the ignition switch. I woul check if you have 12 volts on the yellow wire to the starter when the key is in the start position. Low voltage could be a bad ignition switch. You can also jump from the terminal with the red wire to one of the spade terminals. If the starter engages the problem is elsewhere.

[bbrock]

i will try for sure later when the car as real cooled off and see if anything.
I did try to restart it right when I garaged without any success ...

I did the same. Mine went dead stopping for gas in the last 70 miles of a 350 mile non-stop run. When I got home, I parked in the garage and then tried to start it. Nothing. Next morning I tried again and it fired right up. That was good confirmation.

Good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[mgphoto]

Could be a stuck solenoid on the starter, easy to test, take a screwdriver and short the 2 connectors on the solenoid (1 is a spade connector the other is directly connected to the battery) that is what happens when the Ford solenoid is installed as a stopgap measure.
The starters aren’t the problem the problem it’s the solenoid, I used a batch made in Brazil lasts about a year, German ones last 45.
I finally went Japanese.

[Stef914]

@stef914

If you do need a starter i have two on the shelf rebuild by a local shop. $150 plus shipping.
It could also be the ignition switch. I woul check if you have 12 volts on the yellow wire to the starter when the key is in the start position. Low voltage could be a bad ignition switch. You can also jump from the terminal with the red wire to one of the spade terminals. If the starter engages the problem is elsewhere.

Hi and thanks for the offer .
My volt gauge goes up to 8 when key turned half way .. and barely to 12 when driving ..
I believe the battery is 10+ years old ... I had it check last time I serviced the car, they recharged it and told me not to worry .. could that be the issue ? I don't know what you mean by "12 volts on the yellow wire..." apologize, just a driver... Zero mechanical skills / tools etc etc ...

[Stef914]

i will try for sure later when the car as real cooled off and see if anything.
I did try to restart it right when I garaged without any success ...

I did the same. Mine went dead stopping for gas in the last 70 miles of a 350 mile non-stop run. When I got home, I parked in the garage and then tried to start it. Nothing. Next morning I tried again and it fired right up. That was good confirmation.

Good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I'll try for sure tomorrow morning and keep you posted ...
In the main time the question is : who might be able to help me sort that mod mentioned above in the LA area ?

I'm a generous tipper (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stef914]

Could be a stuck solenoid on the starter, easy to test, take a screwdriver and short the 2 connectors on the solenoid (1 is a spade connector the other is directly connected to the battery) that is what happens when the Ford solenoid is installed as a stopgap measure.
The starters aren’t the problem the problem it’s the solenoid, I used a batch made in Brazil lasts about a year, German ones last 45.
I finally went Japanese.

Thanks for the advice,

I'll mention to the shop ... I'm just a driver with no mechanical skills whatsoever unfortunately !

I don't even know what a solenoid is , I mean I've looked it up but it might as well be a nice key pendant based on what i see (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Stef914]

Did the starter work again after the engine cooled down? If so, it could be the classic "hot start" problem. Happened to me just a few weeks ago with a brand new starter and new OEM ignition switch.

Check out Mark Henry's excellent thread on the best way to fix it. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;mode=threaded I did this fix and no more hot start issues (and this was after an old Bosch hot start relay had failed on me).

If your starter still isn't turning over even when the engine is cool, could be a few other things with the starter being only one of them.

Have heard/read of Several cases of that happening the past few weeks.
Did the Mark Henry fix a few years ago; never a problem since. $30; 15 minutes.

Should you know of anyone that knows how to do the Mark Henry fix in the LA area pls keep me posted ... I have 100% zero technical/mechanical skills and no tools whatsoever ...

But I do like driving vintage cars (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[porschetub]

@stef914

If you do need a starter i have two on the shelf rebuild by a local shop. $150 plus shipping.
It could also be the ignition switch. I woul check if you have 12 volts on the yellow wire to the starter when the key is in the start position. Low voltage could be a bad ignition switch. You can also jump from the terminal with the red wire to one of the spade terminals. If the starter engages the problem is elsewhere.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) my bad switch did the same but now and then until nothing ,fitting the Ford starter relay helps but IMO with the switch its more of a design issue with this part,this part is used in a lot of early VAG cars and fails the same way in all of them from my experience,the top contact cover splits @ the point where the return spring tang fits.
The result of this is the spring loaded contacts loose full contact and burn out ,had this issue on Golf,T2 Bus and early 944 switches.
Bosch starters are pretty robust but if they are old and can always benefit from a strip down and clean,the commutator and worn brushes are usually the cause of poor cranking.
.

[bbrock]

The Ford solenoid reduces the voltage needed through the ignition switch circuit needed to actuate the starter. As Mark explains in the link I posted above, the Bosch starter solenoid requires about 9v to kick in and the Ford only requires about 3v. There is a long run of 50 year old wire that has built up resistance with age the electricity had to flow through from the battery, all the way to the steering column, and back to the starter solenoid. Add heat to the equation which adds even more resistance and you can have a car that fires right up when cold but nothing when hot.

I agree the switch is another suspect point (as is weak battery or dirty/corroded cable connections). If you have to buy one, buy Genuine Porsche. They are more expensive but too many reports of aftermarket switches failing quickly to gamble. The Ford solenoid might temporarily help a switch that is on its way out and not conducting full voltage as it should, but will only be temporary. That isn't it's purpose. It's purpose is simply to reduce the voltage demand enough that a hot starter doesn't force you into a push start of shame.

However, when I was in college I drove my 914 several months with a non-functioning starter (yes, I was broke). As long as I parked pointing down a slope, or even on level ground, I could always get it moving and then jump in and throw it into 2nd to fire up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also, any decent mechanic or competent DIY guy should be able to do the Mark Henry fix with a copy of his posts in hand. Super easy.

[Spoke]

My volt gauge goes up to 8 when key turned half way .. and barely to 12 when driving ..
I believe the battery is 10+ years old ... I had it check last time I serviced the car, they recharged it and told me not to worry .. could that be the issue ? I don't know what you mean by "12 volts on the yellow wire..." apologize, just a driver... Zero mechanical skills / tools etc etc ...

If you're referring to the volt meter on the center console, the meter itself is fairly accurate but its location in the 914 wire harness makes the reading of the volt meter quite questionable and not a reliable measurement of system voltage.

The yellow wire which Bruce refers to is the power wire from the ignition key to the starter providing the voltage to engage the starter. Knowing the voltage on this wire can point suspicion to either the starter or the ignition key.

Pretty much all the replies you've received are from guys who may have started like you but learned to work on their 914s and now have deep understanding of the items that can cause issues like your 'no start' condition.

You mention that you have no mechanical skills or tools. What is your goal with your 914? Do you want to learn how to repair your 914 or would you be more inclined to find a reputable shop and allow them to repair your 914? Either way is fine but keep in mind you're driving a 50+ year old car with all the issues that a 50 year old car has and likely there may be more issues ahead as you drive your 914 more and more.

[brant]

Stefano,

you are most likely dealing with a starter
couple of hundred bucks.. and it is not a long or difficult install so hopefully under an hour labor at a shop.

do see if it starts again now that it is cooled down

you could be dealing with an ignition switch
2nd most likely.
the part is cheaper... the job a little harder... but not too difficult
I don't know book... but I think a shop could install in about 1.5 hours...

regarding ignition switches... there were reproductions made that are cheap.. but do not last. people have had them fail in 6 months... try to get a factory part if the switch is your problem

regarding learning to do this yourself
you can tell most people on this site are very comfortable working on their cars
these cars are old... unless its a museum quality restoration... nearly all of your cars systems are old and partially worn out. these cars are more reliable than some other brands of the same vintage... but still require constant maintenance and repair

so the cost of paying your shop to replace the starter... will be about enough money to buy jack stands and tools and do the job yourself...

but those jackstands and tools will come in very handy down the road when the next thing breaks.

brant

[wonkipop]

sometimes you can get away with giving the starter motor a tap -
if you are stuck and can't roll it to start it.

take a wheel wrench if you have one in your tool kit,
or use the wheel wrench lever they give you in the standard tool kit.
lie on the ground on your back and wiggle in from the back head first from the left hand side.
you can squeeze in under there from that direction.
don't touch the muffler or exhausts! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
you will see the start motor up on the gearbox.
stretching and reaching up with the wheel wrench or lever -
give it a couple of taps on the body of the starter.
don't tap the solonoid off the side of it and stay away from the wires.
a few firm but "also gently directed" taps.

get back in and turn the key and see if it starts.
often works with a hot starter situation.

how do i know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

------

thats if you get stuck before you accomplish a solonoid fix ala mark henry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[930cabman]

The way I see it is every time I take out any of my sporting machines it's an adventure. How many of us has gone completely through our cars from top to bottom? At a half century old there is bound to be something on the fritz

[bbrock]

The way I see it is every time I take out any of my sporting machines it's an adventure. How many of us has gone completely through our cars from top to bottom? At a half century old there is bound to be something on the fritz

Ha ha! I HAVE gone completely through my car top to bottom. Trust me. It doesn't make you immune to break downs and roadside repairs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Superhawk996]

At the risk of offending everyone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

The first thing that needs to be checked when you're getting no start conditions are the grounds.

There are two key ground points that affect the starter motor:

1) The ground between the body and the transmission / engine (most suspect as being either missing completely, or 50 years old & seriously corroded)

2) The battery to the chassis (near battery on OEM setup)

If either of these grounds have even 0.5 ohms of resistance, you will end up with a no start / solenoid clicking but no cranking, or slow cranking.

For the record, I'm not completely against the hot start solenoid fix, but it is not needed if the vehicle wiring and the ignition switch are up to par. Over the years, I've fixed 3 cars that had hot start relay fixes pasted onto them as band-aids when the real root cause was a high resistance ground issue at one of the locations noted above.

[worn]

All of the above are reasonable answers. That tells you how hard these things can be to deal with if you don't have the ability to diagnose things. An old battery with lower than optimum voltage, a hot day causing the solenoid to stick a bit, a poorly designed system directly controlling the solenoid from a weak starter switch. Could be a lot of things. I suggest having the battery tested for at least voltage. Hitting the solenoid sometimes works to get you home. Adding the Ford relay (or any suitable relay thatb will handle the solenoid load) is cheap insurance. Good luck.

Your approach of disconnecting and reconnecting the battery reminds me of a joke in which computer scientists attempt to fix a car by re-booting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)