Hi all

I left early this morning for my beautiful beach ride. Drove all the way from Pasadena thru downtown to Santa Monica and then all the way to Ventura county line.
Had a brief stop then headed back thru the Malibu Mnts. around Simi Valley and back to Pasadena with the 210...

Car drove flowlessly as usual ...

Had to stop to fill up some gas watching the $meter going almost like back home in Europe...

When done I turned the key half way: pump sound check - all gauges check - but on the final key turn ooops car not starting... engine not even cranking

Disconnected / reconnected the battery a couple of time since I obviously have no clue about anything and I though I might as well try this procedure a couple of times, clearly with no success

While sitting at the gas station and trying to think a solution I asked this nice gentlemen if he could help me push the car to see If I could get it started in first gear, just like I used to do with my Vespa back in my teens ...

Turns out that this gentlemen used to have a '72 914 from back in the days when you could get them for $500 ( yes $ 500 ... at least so he said )

Mine it's a late "73 2.0 FI all stock...

Now while he pushes under the hot heat sun of almost noon o'clock, when I release the clutch into 1st gear comfortably seating in the driver seat, the car starts just fine with no hesitations

"Starter! Definitely the starter!!": he says. Or something else that I've now already forgot ... something that started with the letter "b" ... if I try to remember...

Anyway long story short I drive the car back into my garage, kill the engine, try to restart it just for the sake of it and/or to see if it was just a nightmare I had tonight or if it really happened and guess what ... the car didn't start hehehe

Now, you guys seems to know all about those cars, for sure more then I do ( I'm just a driver ) but does it sounds to you, based on my description that this could potentially be
a starter issue ??

I know it can be about 2.8 million different reasons but I'm just trying to narrow my search down

If you agree with the verdict would you be kind enough to tell me how much ( more or less ) such a repair might costs ? I'm in LA, so one way or the other I'm gonna get screwed over for sure but I tent to enjoy when I know HOW much I get screw over for

I already check online and a starter seems to go from about $200 to $300 plus he labor , the tax, the tips, the tools, the love and all the nice things that happen @ the mechanic ...

This said I'd like to thank you all in advance and looking forward to roll down the hills sometime soon

Stefano

Did the starter work again after the engine cooled down? If so, it could be the classic "hot start" problem. Happened to me just a few weeks ago with a brand new starter and new OEM ignition switch.

Check out Mark Henry's excellent thread on the best way to fix it. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;mode=threaded I did this fix and no more hot start issues (and this was after an old Bosch hot start relay had failed on me).

If your starter still isn't turning over even when the engine is cool, could be a few other things with the starter being only one of them.

Thanks Brent!

i will try for sure later when the car as real cooled off and see if anything.
I did try to restart it right when I garaged without any success ...

I must say today it was particularly hot and drove quite a bit too so yeah engine oil temperature was on the "P" section of the gauge ...

Have heard/read of Several cases of that happening the past few weeks.
Did the Mark Henry fix a few years ago; never a problem since. $30; 15 minutes.

@stef914

If you do need a starter i have two on the shelf rebuild by a local shop. $150 plus shipping.
It could also be the ignition switch. I woul check if you have 12 volts on the yellow wire to the starter when the key is in the start position. Low voltage could be a bad ignition switch. You can also jump from the terminal with the red wire to one of the spade terminals. If the starter engages the problem is elsewhere.

I did the same. Mine went dead stopping for gas in the last 70 miles of a 350 mile non-stop run. When I got home, I parked in the garage and then tried to start it. Nothing. Next morning I tried again and it fired right up. That was good confirmation.

Good luck!

Could be a stuck solenoid on the starter, easy to test, take a screwdriver and short the 2 connectors on the solenoid (1 is a spade connector the other is directly connected to the battery) that is what happens when the Ford solenoid is installed as a stopgap measure.
The starters aren’t the problem the problem it’s the solenoid, I used a batch made in Brazil lasts about a year, German ones last 45.
I finally went Japanese.

Hi and thanks for the offer .
My volt gauge goes up to 8 when key turned half way .. and barely to 12 when driving ..
I believe the battery is 10+ years old ... I had it check last time I serviced the car, they recharged it and told me not to worry .. could that be the issue ? I don't know what you mean by "12 volts on the yellow wire..." apologize, just a driver... Zero mechanical skills / tools etc etc ...

I'll try for sure tomorrow morning and keep you posted ...
In the main time the question is : who might be able to help me sort that mod mentioned above in the LA area ?

I'm a generous tipper

Thanks for the advice,

I'll mention to the shop ... I'm just a driver with no mechanical skills whatsoever unfortunately !

I don't even know what a solenoid is , I mean I've looked it up but it might as well be a nice key pendant based on what i see

Should you know of anyone that knows how to do the Mark Henry fix in the LA area pls keep me posted ... I have 100% zero technical/mechanical skills and no tools whatsoever ...

But I do like driving vintage cars

my bad switch did the same but now and then until nothing ,fitting the Ford starter relay helps but IMO with the switch its more of a design issue with this part,this part is used in a lot of early VAG cars and fails the same way in all of them from my experience,the top contact cover splits @ the point where the return spring tang fits.
The result of this is the spring loaded contacts loose full contact and burn out ,had this issue on Golf,T2 Bus and early 944 switches.
Bosch starters are pretty robust but if they are old and can always benefit from a strip down and clean,the commutator and worn brushes are usually the cause of poor cranking.
Click to view attachment.

The Ford solenoid reduces the voltage needed through the ignition switch circuit needed to actuate the starter. As Mark explains in the link I posted above, the Bosch starter solenoid requires about 9v to kick in and the Ford only requires about 3v. There is a long run of 50 year old wire that has built up resistance with age the electricity had to flow through from the battery, all the way to the steering column, and back to the starter solenoid. Add heat to the equation which adds even more resistance and you can have a car that fires right up when cold but nothing when hot.

I agree the switch is another suspect point (as is weak battery or dirty/corroded cable connections). If you have to buy one, buy Genuine Porsche. They are more expensive but too many reports of aftermarket switches failing quickly to gamble. The Ford solenoid might temporarily help a switch that is on its way out and not conducting full voltage as it should, but will only be temporary. That isn't it's purpose. It's purpose is simply to reduce the voltage demand enough that a hot starter doesn't force you into a push start of shame.

However, when I was in college I drove my 914 several months with a non-functioning starter (yes, I was broke). As long as I parked pointing down a slope, or even on level ground, I could always get it moving and then jump in and throw it into 2nd to fire up.

Also, any decent mechanic or competent DIY guy should be able to do the Mark Henry fix with a copy of his posts in hand. Super easy.

If you're referring to the volt meter on the center console, the meter itself is fairly accurate but its location in the 914 wire harness makes the reading of the volt meter quite questionable and not a reliable measurement of system voltage.

The yellow wire which Bruce refers to is the power wire from the ignition key to the starter providing the voltage to engage the starter. Knowing the voltage on this wire can point suspicion to either the starter or the ignition key.

Pretty much all the replies you've received are from guys who may have started like you but learned to work on their 914s and now have deep understanding of the items that can cause issues like your 'no start' condition.

You mention that you have no mechanical skills or tools. What is your goal with your 914? Do you want to learn how to repair your 914 or would you be more inclined to find a reputable shop and allow them to repair your 914? Either way is fine but keep in mind you're driving a 50+ year old car with all the issues that a 50 year old car has and likely there may be more issues ahead as you drive your 914 more and more.

Stefano,

you are most likely dealing with a starter
couple of hundred bucks.. and it is not a long or difficult install so hopefully under an hour labor at a shop.

do see if it starts again now that it is cooled down

you could be dealing with an ignition switch
2nd most likely.
the part is cheaper... the job a little harder... but not too difficult
I don't know book... but I think a shop could install in about 1.5 hours...

regarding ignition switches... there were reproductions made that are cheap.. but do not last. people have had them fail in 6 months... try to get a factory part if the switch is your problem

regarding learning to do this yourself
you can tell most people on this site are very comfortable working on their cars
these cars are old... unless its a museum quality restoration... nearly all of your cars systems are old and partially worn out. these cars are more reliable than some other brands of the same vintage... but still require constant maintenance and repair

so the cost of paying your shop to replace the starter... will be about enough money to buy jack stands and tools and do the job yourself...

but those jackstands and tools will come in very handy down the road when the next thing breaks.

brant

sometimes you can get away with giving the starter motor a tap -
if you are stuck and can't roll it to start it.

take a wheel wrench if you have one in your tool kit,
or use the wheel wrench lever they give you in the standard tool kit.
lie on the ground on your back and wiggle in from the back head first from the left hand side.
you can squeeze in under there from that direction.
don't touch the muffler or exhausts!
you will see the start motor up on the gearbox.
stretching and reaching up with the wheel wrench or lever -
give it a couple of taps on the body of the starter.
don't tap the solonoid off the side of it and stay away from the wires.
a few firm but "also gently directed" taps.

get back in and turn the key and see if it starts.
often works with a hot starter situation.

how do i know.

------

thats if you get stuck before you accomplish a solonoid fix ala mark henry.

The way I see it is every time I take out any of my sporting machines it's an adventure. How many of us has gone completely through our cars from top to bottom? At a half century old there is bound to be something on the fritz

Ha ha! I HAVE gone completely through my car top to bottom. Trust me. It doesn't make you immune to break downs and roadside repairs.

At the risk of offending everyone

The first thing that needs to be checked when you're getting no start conditions are the grounds.

There are two key ground points that affect the starter motor:

1) The ground between the body and the transmission / engine (most suspect as being either missing completely, or 50 years old & seriously corroded)

2) The battery to the chassis (near battery on OEM setup)

If either of these grounds have even 0.5 ohms of resistance, you will end up with a no start / solenoid clicking but no cranking, or slow cranking.

For the record, I'm not completely against the hot start solenoid fix, but it is not needed if the vehicle wiring and the ignition switch are up to par. Over the years, I've fixed 3 cars that had hot start relay fixes pasted onto them as band-aids when the real root cause was a high resistance ground issue at one of the locations noted above.

All of the above are reasonable answers. That tells you how hard these things can be to deal with if you don't have the ability to diagnose things. An old battery with lower than optimum voltage, a hot day causing the solenoid to stick a bit, a poorly designed system directly controlling the solenoid from a weak starter switch. Could be a lot of things. I suggest having the battery tested for at least voltage. Hitting the solenoid sometimes works to get you home. Adding the Ford relay (or any suitable relay thatb will handle the solenoid load) is cheap insurance. Good luck.

Your approach of disconnecting and reconnecting the battery reminds me of a joke in which computer scientists attempt to fix a car by re-booting.

@bbrock Brent,

I tried to start up the car earlier this morning but nope ... nothing ... lights and gauges come up and when I fully turn the the key I can hear a sounds that is not the engine trying to crank but something more like a continuation of the sound of the fuel pump that you'd hear when you turn the key half way... if you know what I mean ...

@brant Brant, thanks for the info ... I tried the car earlier this morning but nope.

The gauges and lights come up so there is some electrical power coming but when i turn the key all the way it won't start ... I hear a noise that it sounds like some sort of continuation of the fuel pump does when you turn the key half way if you know what I mean...

I totally hear you with the DIY repair ... I hope sooner then later to overcome this inner fear of mine of f#$%^@& it up and ending at the shop and having to pay twice as much ..

My car is no museum quality but it's indeed very very very nice, 3rd owner always garaged in SOCAL all original... hence the fear even more heheh

@wonkipop thank you ! I'll give it a try ... even do I've tried again earlier this morning with a cold engine and the car ain't starting ...

All gauges and lights come up when I half turn the key and I hear the fuel pump doing it's thing but when I turn the key all the way all I hear is some sort of noise that sounds almost just like the fuel pump sound ( not the engine cranking sound ) if you know what I mean

@superhawk966 thanks for your insight !

I'll ask the shop to check for those 2 points before anything else...

As I was saying to other members, when I tried again earlier this morning with a cold engine I see the gauges, lights and fuel pump all doing their things when turning the key half way but then when i fully turn the key all i hear is this kind of noise that sounds almost like the fuel pump ... definitely not the engine trying to crank or at least I think so

Hopes this make sense

@worn I know I'm just a rookie millennial used to turn things on and off when everything fails ...
I really have no clue about anything when it comes to engine / motors and that is a shame...

Anyway I think is time to change my battery even tho the shop said otherwise .. it's for sure about 10 year old and the gauge sits on 8 with half turn of the key and doesn't go above 12 when driving ... even the instruction manual said it's no good like that ...

This said I will keep you posted on the out come... i'm glad I was at least able to get the car home safe where she belongs

Well bummer, but at least that rules out the easy thing. Now you can move on to the other possibilities. FWIW, I think this is the perfect DIY project to get your feet wet and comfortable with working on your baby. I think all the possible issues have already been covered here. Just a matter of picking up an inexpensive multi-meter and ruling things out until you find the problem.

Good luck!

it could be a dud battery.
usually you will get an audible click or continuous clicking sound - but it won't crank.
can't hurt to try. but chances are its something else.

i like your shameless admission of millennial helplessness!

on the other hand, give a millennial a computer - its a different ballgame.

When I was in high school (mid 80’s), my 914 had a bad charging system. I had no clue how to fix it so I would charge it every couple days but even so, got really good at push starting. I would try to park it on a hill but not too steep because the e-brake didn’t work either.
Not too long ago, I drove my 914 to work at Sallie Mae. I left the turn signal on and discharged the battery. I asked one of the young kids there to give me a push. He looked confused but I told him to just humor me. A couple steps, I popped the clutch and it started right up. The 20 something thought it was the most amazing move ever and wanted to know how it worked. I said it is a Porsche thing.

the kid would have been even more confused by the presence of a clutch pedal?

914s are so light. when infamous seat belt interlock left me on occasion in a world of pain 30+ years ago, i would often start it in reverse. real easy if you stuck on your own somewhere. barely needs to be rolling to fire up.

haven't had to do it for a long time. but they start just about the easiest of any car i've ever had.

these days. SUVs with auto boxes. ya doomed.

Before I met my wife, she had a Karmann Ghia, so popping the clutch to get the car started was also second nature for her.

You could rule the battery out of the equation by jumping it off of a good working car or jump start device.

I have several of the older version of these from Amazon and they're a lifesaver if your battery ever dies, easily jump starts the car without needing any assistance or another car.
Car Jump Starter

If the car cranks up, then the battery is just too low to crank the starter.

My point exactly, a good idea to have a flatbed on speed dial, plenty of room on your favorite credit card and a few tools/spare parts.

BTW how is she running

@eric9144 yes Eric I think it's time to change the battery ...
@mgphoto came by today and check the battery with the volt meter to find out that there is not much juice left in it ..
He then showed me how to tap the solenoid with the screwdriver to get it back to work for the time being and the car fired right up

@Stef914

you are on the back road to ruin now mate - deviating from the millennial super highway.
better buy yourself a box of plastic mechanic gloves.


not a big step from tapping starter motors to engine tear downs.
you are going to love it.

@mgphoto is a good bloke dropping in on you.
bit different to hermit 914 life down here in north antarctica.
fantastic.

Stefano’s car is a beauty, the roof looks new.
It’s been well taken care of.
Next phase
Step 1 Haynes Manual
Step 2 Harbor Freight metric tool kit
Step 3 hand soap
Subsequent phase learning curve.
It does become a Zen thing, if you let it.