SOT: When did the hood badge change? Options

[Superhawk996]

i knew i had seen it somewhere in the dim distant past.
found it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) NARP baby! Flaunt it!

[Superhawk996]

@bbrock

“ However, the Swiss brand claims it can provide a full charge in less than five minutes, although precise details remain unclear at this stage.” (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)


The way you know he is lying is … if his start up could achieve this feat - he wouldn’t be starting a car company and begging for seed money. He would be an overnight Trillionaire selling said battery and charging technology.

The whole thing is sort of sad to watch given the family legacy. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. Than man is at the fourth phase of the cycle.

[bbrock]

@bbrock

“ However, the Swiss brand claims it can provide a full charge in less than five minutes, although precise details remain unclear at this stage.” (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)


The way you know he is lying is … if his start up could achieve this feat - he wouldn’t be starting a car company and begging for seed money. He would be an overnight Trillionaire selling said battery and charging technology.

The whole thing is sort of sad to watch given the family legacy. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. Than man is at the fourth phase of the cycle.

I share your skepticism but having read as many articles and watched as many vids as I can find on this car, they have apparently confirmed 80% charge in a little over 8 minutes without thermal issues. The five minutes is a bit more speculative and still under development. That said, 250 miles on an 8 minute charge in a $1.5M car using the most expensive bleeding edge tech is one thing. Doing it in a competitively priced car for a mass market without compromising battery life etc. is quite another. But that's how these things progress. Advances usually demonstrate the impossible is technically possible, but ridiculously expense or impractical because of unacceptable tradeoffs. Further development reduces cost and undesirable trade offs. I don't think Piech or anyone else thinks what they have done will revolutionize EVs over night, but more an agent for pushing things forward.

The real question though is whether this is a real Piech, or just another NARP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[RARE 6]

No joke, I saw a bus that someone put a G-series flat six in. They had a Porsche crest on the rear deck lid and since it was running when I saw it, I was immediately pleased lol!

oh yeah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BApBZYzLmoI

Holy bejeebus! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif) I remember many times white knuckling my bus at 50 mph with a 30 mile cross wind hoping the thing didn't tip over. Would like to see the suspension on that beast.

Embedded in my aging brain is the sight in the early 1980s of the late Bill Randle flat towing his 356 convertible down I-25, somewhere north of the speed limit, with his VW camper powered by a 3.0 SC engine with a 5 spd. Headed from Denver to Santa Fe to Fiesta del Porsche. Being an ex-racer, I'm certain the Fuchs indicated he'd paid a little attention to suspension. Must have, since he was smiling instead of gritting his teeth.

[Superhawk996]

If you’re going to run a successful scam the 1st rule is don’t promise something so far out there that it isn’t believable.

Bernie Madoff did so well because he was only promising returns of 5-10% which is very plausible.

Magic technology that eliminates internal resistance in the batteries, wire, and charging port interconnects is not really plausible from a Physics standpoint. Secret Flux capacitor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) going on to deliver on that sort of charging rate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) not really a plausible tale.

[bbrock]

If you’re going to run a successful scam the 1st rule is don’t promise something so far out there that it isn’t believable.

Bernie Madoff did so well because he was only promising returns of 5-10% which is very plausible.

Magic technology that eliminates internal resistance in the batteries, wire, and charging port interconnects is not really plausible from a Physics standpoint. Secret Flux capacitor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) going on to deliver on that sort of charging rate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) not really a plausible tale.

The Porsche Taycan and Kia EV6 are both in production and can already deliver 250 miles of range in 23 minutes. With a lighter car, newer battery tech, and more lax attitude on how badly you are willing to thrash the batteries to get a fast charge in them, I could see them getting close to 8 minutes without requiring magic flux capacitors (although those are pretty awesome from what I hear).

[wonkipop]

where do i get it?

(when i have imbibed of a few L-Jet ales i have considered getting some custom side drop out stripes made in typography to match originals. but saying P I E C H. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

You get it from Ferdinand's son, Anton (Tony), of course. Quite interesting really. His company has developed an EV super car to be released in 2024. Kind of funny since his dad apparently didn't like EVs and is a big reason why VW was slow to the game. Most interesting is that he claims they can put an 80% (250 miles of range) into the car in under 5 minutes. That may be the last hurdle for EVs to truly go mainstream.

EDIT: I almost forgot. In some articles I read, this car is going to be built by "a well-known" car manufacturer. Please, please, please let it be Karmann. That would make it perfect.

There are several videos online. Here is one:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qe7m_YoiNM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qe7m_YoiNM

and an article:

https://www.hotcars.com/everything-we-know-...ctric-piech-gt/

thanks for those links.
very interesting.

true that piech senior did not like EVs -- but he was a fan of hybrids.
the XL-1 was one of those piech driven vw "vanity" projects.
i don't think there is even one of those in australia.
maybe a rich collector has one stashed? lhd only like a 914.

[wonkipop]

No joke, I saw a bus that someone put a G-series flat six in. They had a Porsche crest on the rear deck lid and since it was running when I saw it, I was immediately pleased lol!

oh yeah. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BApBZYzLmoI

Holy bejeebus! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yikes.gif) I remember many times white knuckling my bus at 50 mph with a 30 mile cross wind hoping the thing didn't tip over. Would like to see the suspension on that beast.

Embedded in my aging brain is the sight in the early 1980s of the late Bill Randle flat towing his 356 convertible down I-25, somewhere north of the speed limit, with his VW camper powered by a 3.0 SC engine with a 5 spd. Headed from Denver to Santa Fe to Fiesta del Porsche. Being an ex-racer, I'm certain the Fuchs indicated he'd paid a little attention to suspension. Must have, since he was smiling instead of gritting his teeth.

there was a VW type 3 that used to compete in touring car championships down here in the 70s. it was mid engined. they just went straight to a formula 5000 chev V8 and skipped the porsche power option. pretty interesting car. i seem to recall there were a few "street legal" kombis around back then too that had V8s jammed in the back. i'm betting none of them had any suspension work to compensate.

https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/racin...8-sports-sedan/

[bbrock]

there was a VW type 3 that used to compete in touring car championships down here in the 70s. it was mid engined. they just went straight to a formula 5000 chev V8 and skipped the porsche power option. pretty interesting car. i seem to recall there were a few "street legal" kombis around back then too that had V8s jammed in the back. i'm betting none of them had any suspension work to compensate.

https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/racin...8-sports-sedan/

Great story, and relevant to the subject at hand: "He even went to the trouble of making up his own ‘Volkswagen 5000’ badge that was proudly displayed on the engine cover!"
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[wonkipop]

there was a VW type 3 that used to compete in touring car championships down here in the 70s. it was mid engined. they just went straight to a formula 5000 chev V8 and skipped the porsche power option. pretty interesting car. i seem to recall there were a few "street legal" kombis around back then too that had V8s jammed in the back. i'm betting none of them had any suspension work to compensate.

https://www.shannons.com.au/club/news/racin...8-sports-sedan/

Great story, and relevant to the subject at hand: "He even went to the trouble of making up his own ‘Volkswagen 5000’ badge that was proudly displayed on the engine cover!"
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
i saw that car when i was a 13 year old when dad took me to calder park.
(dad was a holden man and wanted to see bob jane flog his monaro - b j was the anti hero of australian motor sport - just rammed people off the track when they got in his way).
i wanted to see the "pastie" - sounded incredible is what i remember.
translation - aussie slang for VW fastbacks were "pastie". ie cornish pastie - a kind of potato carrot and meat pie. beetles were called "staff cars" or alternatively "hitler's revenge". WW2 had not yet faded from living memory. toyotas were called tojos as well. trying to remember all the other slang. think skodas were "gulag taxis". aussies still had a sense of humour back then.

interesting co-incidence is the VW 5000 rolled out of his shepparton shop exactly the same time my 914 rolled out the door at osnabruk - right down to the end of the month - jan 74.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Superhawk996]

If you’re going to run a successful scam the 1st rule is don’t promise something so far out there that it isn’t believable.

Bernie Madoff did so well because he was only promising returns of 5-10% which is very plausible.

Magic technology that eliminates internal resistance in the batteries, wire, and charging port interconnects is not really plausible from a Physics standpoint. Secret Flux capacitor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) going on to deliver on that sort of charging rate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) not really a plausible tale.

The Porsche Taycan and Kia EV6 are both in production and can already deliver 250 miles of range in 23 minutes. With a lighter car, newer battery tech, and more lax attitude on how badly you are willing to thrash the batteries to get a fast charge in them, I could see them getting close to 8 minutes without requiring magic flux capacitors (although those are pretty awesome from what I hear).

To get that charging rate the Taycan requires an 800 volt charger. Good luck finding L3 800 volt capable fast chargers at your corner store. And that is at 23 minute charge time. So take a deep breath and think about what kind of voltage it would take to get to 5 minute charging. It’s not just a matter of risk taking on whether or not you wish to degrade the battery.

In addition to the internal resistance and heat effects eventually one also runs into chemistry stability and limitations on how fast Lithium ion mass can be moved from one place to another within the battery cell.

As always - these bogus marketing claims are what continue to drive me crazy with EVs and no one does the homework. The media just parrots it back as if it is a fact. Understandable given the average journalist has no understanding of Physics, Chemistry, or any of the physical sciences and only gets paid to regurgitate whatever they are told the science is.

Next miracle in battery tech is always just around the corner in a year or so. Please be patient . . . I’m getting old waiting.

Here is info on Taycan charging which peaks at 2.8C charge rate. To get to 8 minute charging you’ll have to get closer to 7.5C rate.
https://insideevs.com/news/512344/porsche-t...rging-analysis/

[Superhawk996]

Hilarious - here’s their “proof”. Fast charging a single cell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)



Now try putting them all together into a real battery pack and doing the same test at a 10C rate.

RC cars / drones and a few other things charge / discharge at 10C rate so it’s not even a novelty. However those RC car batteries are notorious for thermal events, bulging pouches, etc.

[bbrock]

We've already drifted way off topic so what the heck. First, the charger required is irrelevant because Piech has made no claims about what kind of charger is needed for their claimed fast charge. Even if it needs a special 1,000v charger, their claim is still accurate if they can get the battery pack to 80% charge in 8 minutes. And yes, I checked and the Kia also uses an 800v DC charger to get a fast charge, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. What is important to the consumer is that they get the convenience of refueling comparable to ICE at a competitive cost.

Second, the Piech GT is not a Taycan. The Taycan has a 93.4 kwh battery pack, the P GT has 75 kwh. I would think a 20% smaller battery pack would take less time to charge to 80% even if the charge rates were identical. Third, the P GT weighs 744-1,114 ponds LESS than a Taycan. You of all people know that is a huge range booster. As you always say, it's a system and when we look at the whole system, their claim is less of a "miracle breakthrough" and more of an incremental advancement, but a significant one if they can prove up on their claims. I just don't see why you think this is so far fetched. EV tech is improving rapidly. There was an 8-fold increase in energy density of batteries in the the 12 years prior to 2020 and a 152% increase in average range in a decade as of 2021. None of this required miracle breakthroughs. Just rapid but steady advancement. Only time will tell if Piech can prove up on their claims.

[Superhawk996]

I just don't see why you think this is so far fetched.

Because I’ve been following EVs and the hype since the EV1 was going to change the world in the 1996 - 1999 era.

My 1st 914 was actually wrecked when two guys from GM were test driving it when I had it for sale. They showed up at my house in an EV1. I guilted them into letting me drive the EV1 after the accident even though I worked for a GM competitor. It was surreal driving with no engine noise. True story!

So, range has gone from about 55 miles to 250-500. Charging times have decreased substantially but still are not competitive with a gasoline fuel fill-up.

It’s all sort of impressive until I realize that I was 40 lbs lighter, had more hair, had skin without wrinkles, and was far more attractive back in 1999. So after 20+ years have gone by, I’m now an old man. EVs are still sort of interesting (especially 0-60 acceleration) but have consistently failed to live up to the hype surrounding them no matter which OEM is pitching them. The next big improvement has always been just around the corner . . . For twenty odd years.

That’s why (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[bbrock]

I just don't see why you think this is so far fetched.

Because I’ve been following EVs and the hype since the EV1 was going to change the world in the 1996 - 1999 era.

My 1st 914 was actually wrecked when two guys from GM were test driving it when I had it for sale. They showed up at my house in an EV1. I guilted them into letting me drive the EV1 after the accident even though I worked for a GM competitor. It was surreal driving with no engine noise. True story!

So, range has gone from about 55 miles to 250-500. Charging times have decreased substantially but still are not competitive with a gasoline fuel fill-up.

It’s all sort of impressive until I realize that I was 40 lbs lighter, had more hair, had skin without wrinkles, and was far more attractive back in 1999. So after 20+ years have gone by, I’m now an old man. EVs are still sort of interesting (especially 0-60 acceleration) but have consistently failed to live up to the hype surrounding them no matter which OEM is pitching them. The next big improvement has always been just around the corner . . . For twenty odd years.

That’s why (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

This is an odd perspective to me considering how much development ICE has been through to get where it is today. It took 50 years for ICE vehicles to replace horses as the most common means of transportation. That took a combination of developing the technology and infrastructure to support it, just like we see with EV. Cars didn't replace trains for long distance travel until a sufficient interstate highway system was developed. Even in my lifetime, traveling in a car for more than a few hundred miles was much more of an adventure than today and was often interrupted by delays waiting to replace a water pump, radiator hose, repair an ignition or change the ubiquitous flat tire. Even when nothing broke, they ran like crap when the elevation changed. Even through the 80s, economically priced cars started to become iffy at ~60K miles and downright unreliable after 100K. With FI, electronic ignition, and other advances, we now routinely travel across the continent in cars with 200K+ miles on the clock with confidence.

Sure, EV has been around as long as ICE, but serious development really didn't start until the very late 1990s. In that time, EV have already gone from hobby novelty to comparable to cars of the 80s in terms of reliability and convenience. Just like ICE before them, EVs have found their value in cities first. Even in the uncivilized EV wasteland around here, Teslas are ubiquitous and mixed with the ICE just like old photos of US cities in the 1920s show Tin Lizzies and horses. True, EVs have not yet matched ICE for range and fueling speed for long distance travel, but they get closer every year. Where you see plodding progress and hype, I see shockingly fast progress and delivering on the promise. Sure, any retailer is going to hype their product, but when I look at what EV has already accomplished and how quickly it has done it, I'm impressed. They are rapidly closing the gap on ICE for most use cases.

In the end though, if the only legacy of the Piech venture is that it leaves @wonkipop with a hood badge he can be proud of, they will have made a significant contribution to automobile history. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[mgphoto]

So, did the European 914’s all have the Wolfsburg crest on the batwing 914/6 included?
Did 914/6 cars with steelies have the Porsche badge on the hubcap?
Did 914/6 cars with Fuchs have the Porsche badge on the center caps?

[Superhawk996]

Where you see plodding progress and hype, I see shockingly fast progress and delivering on the promise.

In the end though, if the only legacy of the Piech venture is that it leaves @wonkipop with a hood badge he can be proud of, they will have made a significant contribution to automobile history. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

@bbrock I really appreciate that counterpoint. To a large degree it does depend on your point of view. I’ve been too close to it for too long!

Here’s to hoping Wonki can steal a Piech badge someday (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) though it clearly won’t be in the 2 1/2 year development cycle Piech alluded to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)

[Superhawk996]

So, did the European 914’s all have the Wolfsburg crest on the batwing 914/6 included?
Did 914/6 cars with steelies have the Porsche badge on the hubcap?
Did 914/6 cars with Fuchs have the Porsche badge on the center caps?

I can answer the 1st part - partially.

I was living in Italy in 1986/1987 and wanted a 914. They were much harder to find over there. However, I looked at two 914/4s in person and both did have a Wolfsburg crest instead of Porsche crest on the batwing. Small sample size but I suspect it applies to all of Europe as I’ve read in the history books. Can’t answer for the 914/6 because I never saw one when I was in Italy despite 911s being pretty common.

@mgphoto

[mgphoto]

So, did the European 914’s all have the Wolfsburg crest on the batwing 914/6 included?
Did 914/6 cars with steelies have the Porsche badge on the hubcap?
Did 914/6 cars with Fuchs have the Porsche badge on the center caps?

I can answer the 1st part - partially.

I was living in Italy in 1986/1987 and wanted a 914. They were much harder to find over there. However, I looked at two 914/4s in person and both did have a Wolfsburg crest instead of Porsche crest on the batwing. Small sample size but I suspect it applies to all of Europe as I’ve read in the history books. Can’t answer for the 914/6 because I never saw one when I was in Italy despite 911s being pretty common.

@mgphoto

I had read in a book of Porsche history that 50% of all 914 production was delivered to the US market, and 50% of that number was delivered to Southern California, biggest reason for “rust free” rollers, I believe.
Now all US cars got the Porsche batwing I’m sure a few other markets got the Porsche item but that still leaves a very large number of VW batwings.
The question would be, did all cars badged as VW/Porsche get the Wolfsburg crest?
50% of production of the 914/6 model would be US model Porsche batwing that leaves about 1700 cars with Wolfsburg batwings and the Porsche badge on steelies or Fuchs?
I believe the 914 was birthed as a VW for 4 cylinder models but as a Porsche for 6 cylinder versions. But because of marketing pressure things got convoluted to say the least.
Porsche needed to sell cars, VW was selling cars like crazy all over the world.
I’m sure the mucky mucks at Porsche hated the idea of this little bastard car dulling the image of there bullwork vehicle, all hail the 911, hence the formation of the the alphabet soup that became the sales arm.
Look the 914 body and the 911 bodies came out of the same factory, 911’s and 914/6’s were pushed across the street to be assembled in the Porsche Werks and /4’s stayed at the Karmann factory for final assembly.
For good reason these little sh*t cars started to sell, not so much the /6’s cause they were just there to get buyers in the door to see the spectacular 911 that could be yours for a few hundred bucks more, heck the 914/6 was just a way to get rid of all the leftover 2.0 litter motors that would never be sold. Look to the 912, Porsche had to get rid of all the leftover 356 motors, (they did the same with the leftover 2.0 type 4, 912E hahahaha).
We are all slaves to wild corporate machinations, would I buy a new Porsche? No, would I buy a new VW? No, I’ll keep my Toyota Corolla and my 914, whatever name comes with it.

[bbrock]

So, did the European 914’s all have the Wolfsburg crest on the batwing 914/6 included?
Did 914/6 cars with steelies have the Porsche badge on the hubcap?
Did 914/6 cars with Fuchs have the Porsche badge on the center caps?

I can answer the 1st part - partially.

I was living in Italy in 1986/1987 and wanted a 914. They were much harder to find over there. However, I looked at two 914/4s in person and both did have a Wolfsburg crest instead of Porsche crest on the batwing. Small sample size but I suspect it applies to all of Europe as I’ve read in the history books. Can’t answer for the 914/6 because I never saw one when I was in Italy despite 911s being pretty common.

@mgphoto

I had read in a book of Porsche history that 50% of all 914 production was delivered to the US market, and 50% of that number was delivered to Southern California, biggest reason for “rust free” rollers, I believe.
Now all US cars got the Porsche batwing I’m sure a few other markets got the Porsche item but that still leaves a very large number of VW batwings.
The question would be, did all cars badged as VW/Porsche get the Wolfsburg crest?
50% of production of the 914/6 model would be US model Porsche batwing that leaves about 1700 cars with Wolfsburg batwings and the Porsche badge on steelies or Fuchs?
I believe the 914 was birthed as a VW for 4 cylinder models but as a Porsche for 6 cylinder versions. But because of marketing pressure things got convoluted to say the least.
Porsche needed to sell cars, VW was selling cars like crazy all over the world.
I’m sure the mucky mucks at Porsche hated the idea of this little bastard car dulling the image of there bullwork vehicle, all hail the 911, hence the formation of the the alphabet soup that became the sales arm.
Look the 914 body and the 911 bodies came out of the same factory, 911’s and 914/6’s were pushed across the street to be assembled in the Porsche Werks and /4’s stayed at the Karmann factory for final assembly.
For good reason these little sh*t cars started to sell, not so much the /6’s cause they were just there to get buyers in the door to see the spectacular 911 that could be yours for a few hundred bucks more, heck the 914/6 was just a way to get rid of all the leftover 2.0 litter motors that would never be sold. Look to the 912, Porsche had to get rid of all the leftover 356 motors, (they did the same with the leftover 2.0 type 4, 912E hahahaha).
We are all slaves to wild corporate machinations, would I buy a new Porsche? No, would I buy a new VW? No, I’ll keep my Toyota Corolla and my 914, whatever name comes with it.

Good stuff. What fascinates me is that the development seems to have been little affected by all the corporate jockeying to market the car. They just put their heads down to work on executing Piech's vision. He had proven that lightweight, under-powered, mid-engine race cars could be giant slayers and now he wanted to apply those concepts to a practical production roadster. The team did exactly that. I doubt they concerned themselves with how it would be marketed or what it would be called except to vote to approve the car for the Porsche badge.