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> Aftermarket FI options for Type 4 motors 2056 or larger, Who here has gone this route and is it worth it? What options do we have?
DRPHIL914
post Feb 6 2023, 09:05 AM
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i started looking into this 2 years ago when i was planning my rebuild motor after the drpped valve seat on the OEM motor.
I ended up building a nice 2056 with increased compression, brand new heads, counter balanced crank and of course the cam is performance minded as well.
to start i installed the d-jet and later last year i added a 50mm bored out stock throttle body from Tangerine/Chris Foley. Yes this helped a great deal, but we are still limited due to the d-jet and the MPS. So there are a few people out there that make ITB( independant throttle body) that could be used.
One is Jenvey, and i see that PMB is carrying those. It looks ike they are mated to what ever IDF intake manifold you choose. there are 40, 45, 48 options. mated with 350cc injectors.
I am wondering other than the CB performance stuff that has been available for a while, others have come to the table, who here has played around with this ? over the years ive read a lot on others using the megasquirt and micro etc and it seemd they were very difficult to tune and set up with lots of problems, trial and error.

I am looking for advice on what to stay away from and what are the pitfalls and mistakes we can avoid before jumping into this.

Look forward to some input, thanks!!

Phil
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DRPHIL914
post Feb 6 2023, 09:06 AM
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forgot to add this link, its the PMB page listing the Jenvey line for /4 and /6 motors

https://pmbperformance.com/products/jenvey-...;pr_seq=uniform
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GregAmy
post Feb 6 2023, 09:30 AM
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We have several good discussion topics already going on this.

The Dub Shop (Mario's a super guy) has a bolt-on system. But I think he's having difficulties getting throttle bodies:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

Here's a guide I wrote on my Microsquirt conversion of D-Jet (it's not a quick read*):

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Search the site and you'll find other projects with Megasquirt and Haltech. - GA

*I did it that way mostly for myself, to remind me WiTH I did and how I got there. But I figure that if you don't have the patience to read through the thing theny ou probably don't have patience to build it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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DRPHIL914
post Feb 6 2023, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE(GregAmy @ Feb 6 2023, 10:30 AM) *

We have several good discussion topics already going on this.

The Dub Shop (Mario's a super guy) has a bolt-on system. But I think he's having difficulties getting throttle bodies:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

Here's a guide I wrote on my Microsquirt conversion of D-Jet (it's not a quick read*):

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Search the site and you'll find other projects with Megasquirt and Haltech. - GA

*I did it that way mostly for myself, to remind me WiTH I did and how I got there. But I figure that if you don't have the patience to read through the thing theny ou probably don't have patience to build it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


@GregAmy

thanks for the response, i know Ethan down in jax florida started his build with the Haltec conversion using all stock parts. If Mario is having trouble getting what every ITB he was using( i had read that a while ago) then its time to find other options of ITB's that can be used which along with control systms was a reason i started this tread. Most guys seems are using other stock stuff. I will certainly give a full read thru your thread. Zach just posted on another thread someon was posting asking about his 2056 build and CR, etc that he was using 44 ITB with his , that was a another question what sized to use with a similar engine, 40's or 44's. 48's seem too large for ITB FI, . Too expensive to just buy them and get the totally wrong thing,.

Phil
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GregAmy
post Feb 6 2023, 09:53 AM
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Well, thinking outside the box, there's no reason why you can't build a system that uses Dell or Weber carbs for airflow control with the injectors installed in the manifold. I know I've seen those drilled manifolds somewhere but can't find the link now...

Mario's also got a new source for ITBs - he uses/used CB Performance prior - and I'm actually waiting for a pair of 36s to try on my street car:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-idf-throttle-bo...injectors-vwss/

Just a "play with it" test, as it should be as easy as replacing the induction and using the same fuel and electrical systems. I don't expect any significant power improvements, as I'm not currnetly seeing any significant reduction in MAP (maybe 95kPA?) even at WOT at 5500 RPM redline (point is, I think the stock D-Jet flows "enough" air now.) If found to be reasonably true, then it makes building a D-Jet-based conversion a lot easier, and a lot cheaper.

GA
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Geezer914
post Feb 6 2023, 10:10 AM
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2056, 9:1 CR. 9550 cam, 50mm vanagon throttle body. Running 1.8L jet with the AFR metering wheel richened up 4 knotches.
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rgolia
post Feb 6 2023, 01:48 PM
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I am looking hard at this as I am getting tired of the gas smell and hard starts. It seems like the dub-shop has pre-orders going on. Should I take the plunge? PMB? The dub shop? Decisions....decisions.
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914Sixer
post Feb 6 2023, 02:05 PM
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Currently sold out but more on the way.


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GregAmy
post Feb 6 2023, 04:11 PM
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You can do that. I just decided to use the stock rails and securing hardware using these injectors...they should look familiar...

https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/high-impeda...jaguar-porsche/

I replaced the straight lines with curved ones from 914Rubber (or was it Pelican? I forget).


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billh1963
post Feb 6 2023, 04:18 PM
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Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).
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GregAmy
post Feb 6 2023, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE(billh1963 @ Feb 6 2023, 05:18 PM) *

Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).

Depends on what you want it for and where you want the power band.

I decided on 36mm TBs (times four holes) because my 2056 is a ~9:1 street car with a self-imposed ~5500 redline and I wanted solid low- and mid-range airflow velocity for torque. We'll see how it works out.

If I was installing it on my race car, with more compression and ~6500 hard stop and no care what it does down low, then I might consider 40s, maybe 44s (I currently run 40 Dells with 36mm venturis and it seems pretty darned strong up top, wants to keep going...)

I expected the stock D-Jet induction was not going to be enough for my street car. Frankly, maybe it isn't. But I've yet to see any indications via the MAP that it's struggling for air with the stock throttle body. - GA
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914werke
post Feb 6 2023, 06:35 PM
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Ive talked to those guys, it seems the real value of those rail kits is the ability to use newer non-EV1 injectors.
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JamesM
post Feb 6 2023, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE(DRPHIL914 @ Feb 6 2023, 08:05 AM) *

Look forward to some input, thanks!!

Phil


You can run aftermarket FI without going ITBs and unless your motor absolutely needs the ITBs then you are probably better off avoiding them. Your issue isnt so much going to be the lack of airflow with the d-jet intake so much as it is the lack of adjustability with the fueling and timing. Aftermarket injection on top of stock intake. Less cost to build, easier to tune, most likely more drivable as well. Added bonus, it retains the stock appearance and uses less aftermarket parts.


QUOTE(GregAmy @ Feb 6 2023, 03:35 PM) *

I expected the stock D-Jet induction was not going to be enough for my street car. Frankly, maybe it isn't. But I've yet to see any indications via the MAP that it's struggling for air with the stock throttle body. - GA


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
If your motor is near stock or a mild performance build you will save yourself a lot of money and effort sticking with stock 1.8 or 2.0 intake plumbing (Not 1.7 though). An aftermarket ECU will always be an improvement over d-jet but no real need to change the induction plumbing unless you are planning on 140+ hp or a larger displacement 2270 etc
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MSGGrunt
post Feb 6 2023, 07:24 PM
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I have converted my 1969 TR6 with twin SU side draft carbs to FI using a kit made by Patton Machine in Maine and also converted a 1973 Mercedes 2.8 I6 using a 2-barrell EFI system by FI Tech, similar to the Holley sniper system and I have a few questions.

With the Jenvey system is there any risk of the fuel falling out of atomization before it reaches the intake at the head? Does it get input from the stock Porsche sensors? My car is a 1975 CA car, so it originally had an O2 sensor.


With the FI Tech system the 2-barrel is bolted on in place of the OEM Mercedes Solex 4A1 4-barrel. All the "brains" of the system are internal to the unit except for an O2 sensor that had to be installed.

https://fitechefi.com/product/39001-go-efi-...l-400hp-system/


On the Patton Machine system, he uses a GM computer with GM injectors and the SU carbs as just a means to flow air. It comes with a separate O2 sensor, TPS, IAC, MAP, and coolant temp sensors, so not a single unit like the FI Tech or Holley Sniper.

https://www.pattonmachine.com/shop/https-ww...m-bodied-carbs/


Like others, I like my fuel injection even if L-jetronic isn't state of the art by today's standards, but what are we to do if we want to take our 1.8 motors out to 2.0? I assume it would be more than just swapping in bigger injectors and installing a larger or bored our throttle body?





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mihai914
post Feb 7 2023, 07:46 AM
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QUOTE(billh1963 @ Feb 6 2023, 05:18 PM) *

Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).


It's a valid question and I think the main issue with the Sniper EFI systems is that you lose the port injection and revert to a throttle body injection which will cause fuel atomization problems due to the long runners.

The 4 bbl might be too big but they do offer a 1bbl that may or may not fit in place of the throttle body on a 2.0 setup.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_system...l/parts/550-552
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mihai914
post Feb 7 2023, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE(rgolia @ Feb 6 2023, 02:48 PM) *

I am looking hard at this as I am getting tired of the gas smell and hard starts. It seems like the dub-shop has pre-orders going on. Should I take the plunge? PMB? The dub shop? Decisions....decisions.


I think that one of the most important aspects when going with non OE setups, even more so for a complex system like the FI, is support for that system. You want the vendor to be there for you when you will have issues, not just answering the phone but to be able to help with the technical side of things.

D-Jet has stuck around for so long because you can get parts (new and used) or have them refurbished and there is plenty of support from manuals, websites and people here.

Microsquirt, Megasquirt, SDS, Motec, etc. and the customization of the engine make it such that you are basically the only person that is able to service the FI.

Finally, many of the pro Type 4 engine builders still stick to carbs, I think they have gone through the path of trying to make EFI work on a bigger scale.

Food for thought, it's a cool project.
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emerygt350
post Feb 7 2023, 08:33 AM
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If it were me, I would see if the stock FI will work first. The djet is tuneable to a large extent if you have an afr gauge and tangerine racings upgrades to the MPS. People above have mentioned a few turns on the old Ljet made it work with a bigger engine and other improvements.

If original Fi performance can't do it, I think I would go a couple of potential routes. I kind of like the idea of 2x1barrel holley's on custom intakes. Each could have its own bank o2 sensor. Not sure if they would be happy working like that but it might work.

Another move might be seeing if holly or fi tech has moved into that port injection setup they have for V8s. If they have a version for a 4 cylinder you could potentially keep everything the same and pop on the throttle body and injectors. All kinds of potential issues there with sizes etc. but I would look.

I like the idea of a completely self contained setup so I would probably not bother looking at other cars systems if it were me.
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Superhawk996
post Feb 7 2023, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE(mihai914 @ Feb 7 2023, 08:46 AM) *

QUOTE(billh1963 @ Feb 6 2023, 05:18 PM) *

Probably a stupid question but are Holley sniper and similar systems too big for the Type IV? With 4 bbl intake "manifolds" available seems like that could work (if not too big).


It's a valid question and I think the main issue with the Sniper EFI systems is that you lose the port injection and revert to a throttle body injection which will cause fuel atomization problems due to the long runners.

The 4 bbl might be too big but they do offer a 1bbl that may or may not fit in place of the throttle body on a 2.0 setup.



Throttle body injection (TBI) is the worst version of fuel injection. Not even a step up from carbs in my opinion. You get the complexity of fuel injection with all the disadvantages of carbs.

As mentioned above - atomization, fuel drop out in the runners are major issues. You also don’t have control over fuel distribution. Fuel simply goes where it goes. Some cylinders will get more fuel than others.

Then there are mass flow effects. Having the fuel injected that far away from the cylinder creates a large time delay between the time the fuel is injected and when it gets to the cylinder. That delay affects throttle response negatively. Not much of a problem on lumbering V8’s. Not good for high reving small displacement engine’s that change engine speed more quickly.

VW & Porsche (and most other European OEMs) had the common sense to avoid TBI and go straight to port injection. The domestics were too embedded in the past and didn’t want to retool new manifolds, wiring, etc. and went for the cheap solution of TBI. When emissions could no longer be met with TBI, they were forced to go to port injection.

Don’t ignore history.

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emerygt350
post Feb 7 2023, 10:35 AM
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I work with early tbi (CFI in the ford world). It really is better than carbs by a long shot. Poor fuel distribution is a manifold issue (just like carbs). Mpi is better of course but I wouldn't go bragging up our bank fire system. Runner length is still up in the air for me. Velocities are so high and engine heat eventually gets there as well. Obviously mpi would be better but I just don't by it as a show stopper. Modern mpi engines can have incredibly long runners.
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DRPHIL914
post Feb 7 2023, 10:57 AM
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ok wow lots of great comments here i just got caught up reading it all-
this company i have known about- for a while , so i reached out to them again today, and they had an issue with their mounts. i am looking at this if i were to avoid the ITB’s and just get a programmable FI system but stay with my 50mm throttle bud and kept the direct injector, but have new improved bosch injectors that go with these fuel rails. seems keeping direct injection is best, and 50mm probably getting me plenty of air, i have an AFR ans it seems i have enough fuel although at WOT it feels like it needs more ans does go more lean, thst is so hard to change with D-jet it can’t be mapped out lik you could with a more modern FI ECU.
so maybe the Haltec EXU ans sensors to go with my stock intake runners ans 50mm TB ,
would not be a lot of $$,
Injector rehab has one set of rails and injectors, but have to make a new retaining bracket for it, so i’m drying to work out a deal with them and get that, going to look into SDS, Haltec, and get with Eric about their system they have for 2056/2270 motors they developed . not sure which ECU they use.

Phil


QUOTE(914Sixer @ Feb 6 2023, 03:05 PM) *

Currently sold out but more on the way.

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