Aftermarket FI options for Type 4 motors 2056 or larger, Who here has gone this route and is it worth it? What options do we have? Options

[Jack Standz]

Well, I don't know how Edelbrock got it to work (or addressed the safety issues discussed above), but back in 2015 they put together this manifold that can use two DBW throttle bodies:

https://www.edelbrock.com/cross-ram-ls3-int...ifold-7141.html

Was seriously looking at getting one for an LS4 motor eventually going into a Fiero, but they don't offer it for the cathedral heads (and it's pricey, although less now than when introduced). So, it's not a type iv motor, but could be considered a proof of concept for using dual DBW throttle bodies on one motor.

And of course you can always fool around with trying to use mechanical throttle bodies and mechanical linkage if the DBW ones give you heartburn.

[Superhawk996]

Well, I don't know how Edelbrock got it to work (or addressed the safety issues discussed above), but back in 2015 they put together this manifold that can use two DBW throttle bodies:

https://www.edelbrock.com/cross-ram-ls3-int...ifold-7141.html

They didn’t. They are selling you a manifold. If that manifold happens to fit GM throttle bodies that operate throttle by wire, so be it.

It’s up to you to figure out how to make the throttle bodies work. If you use a GM ECU that’s a coincidence. In the end, Edelbrock will bear no responsibility for what the end user does with their parts.

If they were selling a complete, functional system inclusive of an ECU and software they would open themselves up to functional safety implications and potential liability. Even then I’m not sure.

Currently there is a company CommaAI that is basically selling a way to hack your car to create or modify Level 2 ADAS features that can affect driver and vehicle safety. As of yet, there has been no accident or litigation. When the time comes, they will claim the driver was ultimately responsible for the vehicle safety and that they only made the hardware and the code available. How it at will turn out in court is yet to be seen.

From install PDF:
“NOTE: Proper installation is the responsibility of the installer. Improper installation may result in poor performance and engine or vehicle damage.”

Surprised it doesn’t also have the usual “for off-road use only” disclaimer too.

[emerygt350]

No fun car of mine is in spec. And they both have the stock fi systems that I have had to tune by hand. It's all about how hard that is and a
Sniper systems are actually engineered to deal with exactly that problem. Again, not that it will be better, but I think it would be good.

I put a four barrel Edelbrock manifold under my 2 barrel HO CFI in my mustang for two reasons. One, it's a far better manifold for the application than the original cast iron 2 barrel truck intake (Ford, you suck..), and when my computer fails and I can't replace the half dozen sensors, I can just pop a Holley sniper on top. It won't care what cam I have, what head I have or what exhaust I put on.

That is not something to scoff at. That's one afternoon and I am driving again. With about 60 more HP from what I can gather from friends in the ford world.

[Superhawk996]

Was reading the Holly quick start guide. This guide also applies to 914 wiring and should be should be pinned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)



If you feel any of these are appropriate wiring - EFI is not for you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

[bkrantz]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

[emerygt350]

superhawk, that is awesome. However, I have had a cheap pair of crimpers like that for decades! Nobody steals your crimpers if they look like that.

and it's missing my patented "I can't find the electrical tape, so I guess this yellow lab tape is just going to have to work" method.

[DRPHIL914]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.

[rgolia]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.

So what's your plan Phil?

[rgolia]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

Did you have carbs prior to installing the dub shop kit? If so, what are the benefits. That is not a cheap kit, but I am seriously considering it.

[DRPHIL914]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.

So what's your plan Phil?

@rgolia
my plan now is to work with PBM to source the conversion parts they have developed, adaptors to mount the sensors, obtain the FI ECU(Holley) , and for now will
using the stock intakes and my 50MM TB on the stock plenum.

once ican do all that i will save up to eventually get the ITB from PMB(JenveyHeritage IDF 40//45)

[DRPHIL914]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.

So what's your plan Phil?

@rgolia
my plan now is to work with PBM to source the conversion parts they have developed, adaptors to mount the sensors, obtain the FI ECU(Holley) , and for now will
using the stock intakes and my 50MM TB on the stock plenum.

once ican do all that i will save up to eventually get the ITB from PMB(JenveyHeritage IDF 40//45)

[mihai914]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.

@DRPHIL914

Do you have a link to PMBs Type4 Holley adaptation?

The Terminator X seems to tick alot of the right boxes.

Thanks

[DRPHIL914]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

thats awesome!

So the Holley system is what PMB has now gone to , you can use stock components for intake ant TB or go with manifolds and ITB . either way you have a new self learning ECU and new injectors and coils that are basically stock for a small block chevy, they are making the modification brackets for the modern new Bosch TPS and temp sensor to be mounted on our existing plenum . much easier than having to deal with the linkage issues for running separate bank of ITB's. also better to have the air temp and flow measured from one TB than multiple.

I would assume that the new system runs high impedence injectors so new ones are necessary but previlent and cheaper. This could be the quick and easy swap 914 ownders have been looking for with a FI system for less than a set of carbs.

@DRPHIL914

Do you have a link to PMBs Type4 Holley adaptation?

The Terminator X seems to tick alot of the right boxes.

Thanks

no links sorry, they do not have it listed yet , they have not mass produced all the parts yet but this may light a fire under them to do so, but they have a lot going on.

if they don’t have the time or personnel to do that one thought i have is to get all the parts - with eric’s approval, thst they are making , get them scanned so they can be reproduced and start getting some kits together. I will soon have a list/spreadsheet of everything , building this right now and will go from there.
as i get thing ans collect specific part numbers and sources i will post .

[GeorgeKopf]

Has anybody looked at Simple Digital Systems for aftermarket EFI?

http://www.sdsefi.com/specific.html



The kit does not include:
Fuel injectors
Fuel pressure regulator
Fuel rail
Fuel pump
Fuel return line from regulator to fuel tank
Throttle body

George

[scott_in_nh]

We have several good discussion topics already going on this.

The Dub Shop (Mario's a super guy) has a bolt-on system. But I think he's having difficulties getting throttle bodies:

https://thedubshop.com/dual-throttle-body-f...gnition-t4-914/

Here's a guide I wrote on my Microsquirt conversion of D-Jet (it's not a quick read*):

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Search the site and you'll find other projects with Megasquirt and Haltech. - GA

*I did it that way mostly for myself, to remind me WiTH I did and how I got there. But I figure that if you don't have the patience to read through the thing theny ou probably don't have patience to build it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

@GregAmy That was a good read - thanks for taking the time to put it together!
So let me ask you this:
Let's say you already have a 123 distributor with the FI points that you are happy with - could you use one or both of the triggers as a cam/crank position sensor with Microsquirt? The obvious benefit being that you do not have to take the engine out to to fit a trigger wheel (or to change a bad sensor). If possible I think it might really simplify the changeover to Microsquirt and a lot of guys already have them installed.....
Scott

[GregAmy]

That was a good read - thanks for taking the time to put it together!

You are most welcome. Did you actually make it through the whole thing?

Let's say you already have a 123 distributor with the FI points that you are happy with - could you use one or both of the triggers as a cam/crank position sensor with Microsquirt?

I don't know a lot of about the 123 or how the factory system triggers the injectors...however, WAG'ing it from the stock DJet computer diagram, I think not.

If I'm reading that diagram correctly, the disty simply provides a "fire now" signal to one of two banks (stock DJet is batch injection) with no logic. Disty triggers open or close like points (or is it Hall Effect?), computer does some electrical magic, and the injectors fire.

Microsquirt (all pretty much all EFI), on the other hand, wants to know where the crankshaft is relative to TDC and from that, and your desired tuning, it calculates timing and fires the injectors; DJet triggers can't provide that, they're a binary signal.

Doesn't mean you can't continue to use the 123 disty and ignition coil if you want to, they'll run fine. But once the MS is installed it's only a few more components to remove the disty (and sell it) and put an EFI-driven coil on it. An EFI-driven coil also which allows you to vary timing based on RPM and load. - GA

[scott_in_nh]

That was a good read - thanks for taking the time to put it together!

You are most welcome. Did you actually make it through the whole thing?

I did! It took two sessions only because I didn't have the time to do it in one!

Too bad it won't work, it could have been a great intermediary step.

[mihai914]

Ok, to keep the ball rolling, can we also talk about options in general and cost?

Let's consider that all these options need "tuning" to different extents.

For example:

Option 1 - Rebuild D-Jet addressing most common problems/wear items (No ignition)

RockAuto New injectors - $300
Restoration Design New Harness - $480
Jeff Bowlsby MPS Rebuild + basic calibration - $474
Jeff Bowlsby ECU testing - $150
914 Rubber TPS board - $52

Total - $1456

Option 2 - PMB Dual 34 ICT Carbs - $610

Option 3 - PMB Dual 40 IDF Carbs - $1180

Option 4 - DubShop Complete EFI with ignition - $4080

Option 5 - Holley terminator X or similar setup - $1249 as a starting point for the basic hardware...

I consider the DubShop system, the ultimate upgrade but can't justify the cost for a stock or home built 2056 (personal opinion).

I never worked on carbs except for small engines and it's a step back for a stock engine with stock cam.

Rebuilding D-jet seems fairly easy except to fine tune the MPS.

The off the shelf system could be a nightmare or could become plug and play if there is vendor or community support. Final cost is unknown for now and depends how far you exploit the system.

Questions:

A: What is your tipping point $$$ to put D-Jet in a box and start fresh?
B: How much time are you willing to spend to install and setup the system?
C: Which option would you be willing to help a 914 buddy if he offered a bbq dinner and some beer?

Please feel free to add options.

[mepstein]

Installing FI is never cheap. People always underestimate the amount of tuning and sorting needed to make even a plug and play system actually run well. Not just cost but time. And plug and play rarely is.
My personal opinion is if you want FI, buy the best system you can, find someone who knows how to tune it and close your eyes when it’s time to swipe the credit card.

[bkrantz]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

Did you have carbs prior to installing the dub shop kit? If so, what are the benefits. That is not a cheap kit, but I am seriously considering it.

No, my non-running engine had the original D-jet, but with lots of questionable components and beat up wires and connectors. I rationalized the price of the Dub Shop kit with guesses how much I could spend to repair the D-jet. Plus I wanted the programability (and the sexy ITB stacks).

I think I am getting more power out of my build, and smoother running. The biggest flaw in the Dub Shop kit is the lack of a separate cold start circuit. Not too important to me, but could be for some.