Aftermarket FI options for Type 4 motors 2056 or larger, Who here has gone this route and is it worth it? What options do we have? Options

[r_towle]

Last time I looked at this CBPerformance sold complete kits.

Lately I have been looking for EFI on a six cylinder, and the options for generic throttle bodies are many, with adapters for lots of different engines.
Bore size is an option
All the stuff is now out there, including Coil on Plug tech

Rich

[rgolia]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

Did you have carbs prior to installing the dub shop kit? If so, what are the benefits. That is not a cheap kit, but I am seriously considering it.

No, my non-running engine had the original D-jet, but with lots of questionable components and beat up wires and connectors. I rationalized the price of the Dub Shop kit with guesses how much I could spend to repair the D-jet. Plus I wanted the programability (and the sexy ITB stacks).

I think I am getting more power out of my build, and smoother running. The biggest flaw in the Dub Shop kit is the lack of a separate cold start circuit. Not too important to me, but could be for some.

@bkrantz

I am seriously looking at the dubshop system. This car is like a family member having it since new, so I will do my best to swipe the credit card with out swallowing to hard. The engine was rebuilt a few years ago at Tangerine Racing, 2056 with new AA heads done by Hoffman. It runs great, but cold and warm starts suck and the fuel smell is getting old. Right now it is running with 44 webers and there is no existing FI stuff left in the car as far as I know.

So is this the place that you started and how much time did it take to install and tune. Please provide details. I can deal with the spend but I cant deal with frustration and not being able to drive the car because I get the thing dialed in.

[Superhawk996]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Like rgolia, I’ve leaned toward DubShop . Mario has a dyno. He seems to provide a reasonable base tune to start from, etc. Sells as a nice complete kit.

I’d really like to know about low speed, off idle drive ability using Alpha-N or hybrid tuning if you know which is being used. Even if you don’t know or haven’t played yet with tuning, what are your impressions of driveability at low throttle?

Regarding cold start circuit, if you mean a Weber type choke circuit, I’m confused. With EFI you should be able to tune injector pulse with by temperature. So if ambient temp (or head temp) is cold, cold, like 20F, you should be able to modify the fuel map and just dump in some extra fuel

[mihai914]

I found this thread specifically about the Dub Shop system:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...211929&st=0

Almost ten years has gone by!

[bkrantz]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

Did you have carbs prior to installing the dub shop kit? If so, what are the benefits. That is not a cheap kit, but I am seriously considering it.

No, my non-running engine had the original D-jet, but with lots of questionable components and beat up wires and connectors. I rationalized the price of the Dub Shop kit with guesses how much I could spend to repair the D-jet. Plus I wanted the programability (and the sexy ITB stacks).

I think I am getting more power out of my build, and smoother running. The biggest flaw in the Dub Shop kit is the lack of a separate cold start circuit. Not too important to me, but could be for some.

@bkrantz

I am seriously looking at the dubshop system. This car is like a family member having it since new, so I will do my best to swipe the credit card with out swallowing to hard. The engine was rebuilt a few years ago at Tangerine Racing, 2056 with new AA heads done by Hoffman. It runs great, but cold and warm starts suck and the fuel smell is getting old. Right now it is running with 44 webers and there is no existing FI stuff left in the car as far as I know.

So is this the place that you started and how much time did it take to install and tune. Please provide details. I can deal with the spend but I cant deal with frustration and not being able to drive the car because I get the thing dialed in.

For all the gory details, check my build thread, from Sept 2021 to Feb 2022. My dyno tune session was July 2022. I was doing other rebuild work at the same time, so my timeline is complicated. I would bet installing just the EFI kit could be done in about 40 hours.

You will need to embrace tuning with Megasquirt software. It takes a bit to get it set up and learn the basics, but the help manual is OK, and there is lots of stuff online. And you need to decide to pursue tuning by trial and error, or spend the money for some hours (3-6) on a dyno with an operator who knows Megsquirt.

Mario was very good to work with. During the set-up for my dyno session, we ran into a problem and Mario responded to my call for help immediately and saved the session.

BTW, I also have Hoffman heads.

[GregAmy]

Just a quick bump to report a new "find".

Dude pops up on Facebook, in the Porsche 914World group, just bought a 914 and asking "what is this?" with a photo of what looks like an ECU mounted in the rear trunk. I look at it closely and swear that it's a Honda OBD0 ECU. He sends me a closer photo and YEP it's a Honda P06 OBD0 ECU, circa 1993-1995 1.5L Honda del Sol.

He posts a video of the engine compartment and the car is clearly running a Honda disty (with the square bumpout for the coil/ignitor inside) and Honda wiring harness connectors.

It's a blue car, based in Northern California. I suggested to him that he post here but is anyone familar with the car and the engine management design? I'm wondeirng who did it and how.

If you're in that group you should be able to see this...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/40202979983...74386602595671/

[jd74914]

That’s wild. Had to have been done in the late 90s by a heavy duty Hondata guy or something. I can’t imagine ever doing something so complicated in the 2000s when MS and a lot of other budget EFI systems really started taking off.

[bkrantz]

I have the Dub Shop kit on my 2056. As delivered it was easy to install and set up, and it started and idled on the first attempt with the default Type 4 tune file Mario included. After one dyno session I consider the tune 90-95% complete. I hope to get the remaining 5% this summer as I learn how to tweak the Megasquirt settings.

Did you have carbs prior to installing the dub shop kit? If so, what are the benefits. That is not a cheap kit, but I am seriously considering it.

No, my non-running engine had the original D-jet, but with lots of questionable components and beat up wires and connectors. I rationalized the price of the Dub Shop kit with guesses how much I could spend to repair the D-jet. Plus I wanted the programability (and the sexy ITB stacks).

I think I am getting more power out of my build, and smoother running. The biggest flaw in the Dub Shop kit is the lack of a separate cold start circuit. Not too important to me, but could be for some.

@bkrantz

I am seriously looking at the dubshop system. This car is like a family member having it since new, so I will do my best to swipe the credit card with out swallowing to hard. The engine was rebuilt a few years ago at Tangerine Racing, 2056 with new AA heads done by Hoffman. It runs great, but cold and warm starts suck and the fuel smell is getting old. Right now it is running with 44 webers and there is no existing FI stuff left in the car as far as I know.

So is this the place that you started and how much time did it take to install and tune. Please provide details. I can deal with the spend but I cant deal with frustration and not being able to drive the car because I get the thing dialed in.

If you read through my build thread, you can see details about the mechanical installation, setting up the fuel lines and wiring, how I mounted the ECU, the pre-start setup (including tune software), the initial start and home tuning, and then my session on a dyno. That all happened over about 6 months (with other build stuff at the same time). I would guess it could all be done in about a month.

[GregAmy]

That’s wild. Had to have been done in the late 90s by a heavy duty Hondata guy or something. I can’t imagine ever doing something so complicated in the 2000s when MS and a lot of other budget EFI systems really started taking off.

Yep, I'm thinking it's a much older build because he says there's no external USB port on the ECU. That indicates it's a socketed EEPROM, well before the Hondata S300 era, so probably late 90s/early 00s. Probably Moates.

I just think it's pretty damned cool that someone went to all that trouble to engineer a D-Jet install to use the (probably) Moates-programmable Honda ECU. I guess when you think about that era, that was about as good as it was for tuneable ECUs...hell, I was doing it with Nissan back then (early 00s) and I thought I was the s**t...that's old school classic rocker stuff; we're not worthy... - GA

[jd74914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) That stuff really was ahead of it’s time.

That’s before my time-I would have been in elementary school or middle school when people were really playing with socketed EEPROM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) First I’d seen if that stuff was when a buddy bought a modded CRX in high school with a newer motor and S300.

[GregAmy]

That’s before my time-I would have been in elementary school or middle school...

All right young-uns, let me tell you how we used to connect to GENie with a device that made enough noise to get your momma's attention as to why you weren't in bed already... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Definitely "old school". D-Jet (and L-Jet) were so far ahead of their time that full ECU control was, really, still in the future (many don't realize that the mighty 956s Motronic engine management system was a derivative). This came for the fore in the early- to mid-90s with OBD, some systems using pressure (Druck for D-Jet) some using air flow meter (Luft for L-Jet).

Those ECU-controlled cars finally became affordable used cars in the late 90s, and that's when ECU hacking took off. Socketed EEPROMs were the only way to go at the time. You'd find someone to solder in a socket on your board, buy multiple EEPRMs, connect an EEPROM to your computer using an RS232 device, burn the EEPROM. Insert, dyno test. Look at the results, grab another EEPROM to burn with the new tune, swap them, dyno test. Then do it all over again. Tedious.

My first experience with it was in racing with the SR20-equpped Nissan B13s. We weren't even using wideband feedback or data acquisition yet so we'd grab feedback from the driver on where the O2 was down the longest straight and *maybe* take the time to retune the EEPROM, always leaving the weekend's baseline EEPROM off to the side just in case we mucked it up. Even the software was primitive and fidgety to learn. It was right about that time, circa 2005 or so, that guys like CalumSult that tried USB connection and companies like DIYAutotune started offering replacement ECUs (their PnP series) that had USB ports for tuning. Hondata S300. And then eventually wideband feedback, and some times realtime tuning! Life was good.

So I'd really like to meet the guy or gal that did that P06 install into the 914. It was sharp engineering. And I like the way they were thinking! - GA

[r_towle]

Back about 15,years ago, I tuned a 2.4 liter to 150 hp, dyno tested at the wheels. I used stock djet.
It turned into a big argument with a certain aircooled engine “expert” who falsely claimed it could never be done.
It can be done.
The MPS and the right resistor in the CHT circuit, along with an 02 sensor to measure results is what is required.
We used a dyno at the end to see how close we got…. But most of the tuning was up and down my street.
Djet runs rich, and can made much richer if required.

After I learned the two basic things to tune, I got almost 50 mpg from a 1.7….
Djet was also used on Volvos and a few others.
I ended up trying all the MPs units from those, we settled back on the 914 one and learned how to tune it.
Best way is with an 02 sensor stuffed up the tail pipe.
I own the djet tester, but it is just a break fix tool.

If I was going to do it again I would use the inline exhaust sensors Foley came up with to measure each exhaust port.


Rich

[targa72e]

Not quite 914 FI related but Porsche related. I replaced the CIS on my 78 911 SC with a later 3.2 Carrera manifold and injectors using the injection system from a Nissan 280ZX. I tweeked the barn door AFM and coolant temp sensor to tune the fuel mixture. It worked well. This was in the early 90's with limited affordable aftermarket ECU's. Worked good for years. I eventually replaced it with a FAST programmable system designed for Chevy's. That FAST system from the 90's and the Carrera intake is still running on my friends 911 today.

john

[VaccaRabite]

One of the things I'd be wary of with the Dub Shop kit is that it does not (at least when I looked at it) have any ability to run an ICV (Idle Control Valve) or an IAC (Idle Air Control). In my journey with Microsquirt, that's been a critical piece of the puzzle to keep idle steady and starts somewhat smooth.

You CAN do it without the ICV/IAC/whatever you want to call it. For a while I removed the IAC and just used the bleed valve on the TB to manage idle - similar to how D-Jet did it. It works fine once the car is warmed up fully. But getting started on a chilly damp day was challenging that way. And until the engine warmed up it was also a challenging drive, as you need to use throttle to raise idle speed.

Using stock components or using the dual throttle bodies makes the IAC interesting to implement. My solution was kinda janky but it works using a 3d printed connector that attaches a Hyundai IAC from the airbox to the Plenum, suspended on a stout hose. But in my opinion, its a really critical piece of a smooth running FI system. Its also part of the system on just about every modern car.

Zach

[Geezer914]

Search for a used Ljet system. You can adjust the AFM with the wheel inside.

[ClayPerrine]

Search for a used Ljet system. You can adjust the AFM with the wheel inside.

L-Jet is a good system. But it has some limitations that modern EFI doesn't. L-Jet cannot handle any kind of radical camshaft. The flap in the airflow meter starts oscillating badly due to the cam overlap, and that is detrimental to proper mixture control, and makes the air flow meter wear out rapidly.

That's one of the big reasons that Porsche went from a vane air meter in the 964( like the L-Jet has) to a Mass airflow sensor in the 993. And that's the reason I am going away from the 964 motronic in my car. I have a huge, unresolvable flat spot off idle due to the vane air meter oscillation.

I could have gone to a 993 motronic, but the Megasquirt MS3Pro is actually cheaper and gives me more control over the engine.

[GregAmy]

One of the things I'd be wary of with the Dub Shop kit is that it does not (at least when I looked at it) have any ability to run an ICV (Idle Control Valve) or an IAC (Idle Air Control). In my journey with Microsquirt, that's been a critical piece of the puzzle to keep idle steady and starts somewhat smooth.

@VaccaRabite Zach, I'm controlling idle on my Microsquirt setup using timing advance/retard. Give it 30 seconds of throttle to get the heads warmed up (I'm still working on my cold start up sequence) but then it cores and smooths the idle like a mofo, you'd never know there wasn't an idle air control valve in there.

It's an option within TunerStudio settings and it works really, really well. - GA

[falcor75]

Search for a used Ljet system. You can adjust the AFM with the wheel inside.

L-Jet is a good system. But it has some limitations that modern EFI doesn't. L-Jet cannot handle any kind of radical camshaft. The flap in the airflow meter starts oscillating badly due to the cam overlap, and that is detrimental to proper mixture control, and makes the air flow meter wear out rapidly.

That's one of the big reasons that Porsche went from a vane air meter in the 964( like the L-Jet has) to a Mass airflow sensor in the 993. And that's the reason I am going away from the 964 motronic in my car. I have a huge, unresolvable flat spot off idle due to the vane air meter oscillation.

I could have gone to a 993 motronic, but the Megasquirt MS3Pro is actually cheaper and gives me more control over the engine.

There is a German company that does an upgrade to the 964 to use the 993 MAF, cant remember what its called at the moment. One thing I love with a stock system is the no nonsense engine start and idle etc. you have to tinker ALOT to get similar performance with an aftermarket system.

[GregAmy]

One of the things I'd be wary of with the Dub Shop kit is that it does not (at least when I looked at it) have any ability to run an ICV (Idle Control Valve) or an IAC (Idle Air Control). In my journey with Microsquirt, that's been a critical piece of the puzzle to keep idle steady and starts somewhat smooth.

@VaccaRabite Zach, I'm controlling idle on my Microsquirt setup using timing advance/retard. Give it 30 seconds of throttle to get the heads warmed up (I'm still working on my cold start up sequence) but then it cores and smooths the idle like a mofo, you'd never know there wasn't an idle air control valve in there.

It's an option within TunerStudio settings and it works really, really well. - GA

EDIT: got home looked it up. TunerStudio, Startup/Idle, Idle Advance Settings, Change "Idle Advance On" to RPMs. Then Startup/Idle, Idle Advance RPM Settings, and you create a table how you want the timing to change based on RPM.

I have mine set to 15.4@700, 6.7@800, 0@950, -11.9@1100, and -17.9@1250. Cores my idle at 950 really nicely.

Note Startup/Idle, Idle Control, Idle Valve Type is set to "None".

[jd74914]

Controlling idle with spark timing is really the way to go in my opinion. It’s pretty prevalent on newer cars (and in the aftermarket most people recommend going this way rather than with an additional IAC setup). It’s similar to how you make sure an AC compressor doesn’t stall a car at idle. I’ve had good success with a timing ‘trough’ controlling idle on some high rev bike race motors, have not done it on a T4 (though sounds like it’s working well for Greg), but it can’t be that much harder since the bike motors have way wilder cams.